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brentv911

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Can someone point my in the right direction.. We are looking at upgrading our public safety radio system. I'm wondering if there are any tools out on the net that would show my the average signal coverage from a radio tower depending on the frequency.. currently we are in the VHF range and have a fairly large county. 8th largest in the state of Iowa with over 700 sq miles. right now we only have 2 towers and since narrow banding our coverage has suffered. One of our options is joining with a neighboring county that currently is running an 800 Mhz system. i'm curious as to how many towers we would need for complete coverage with an 800 system as apposed to how many towers we would need if we stayed with our current VHF system.

the county is Clinton County Iowa if you would like to look up the county size on the internet
 
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Your questions need to be addressed by a professional consulting organization, when you are looking at spending millions on a upgrade to your communications infrastructure you need to hire a consultant to do a study. Be wary of a vendor wanting to specify "their" solution.
 

Project25_MASTR

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As stated above...there are professional consulting firms for that (and moving to a multi-site 700/800 system would be in the hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollar range.
 

brentv911

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maybe I need to clarify, we have hired a consulting firm, but there is part of the study that I have a hard time believing. Our county is 700+ square miles. one of the options they gave us was staying VHF with 5 radio towers spaced across the county.. the options for the 700 or 800 upgrade show the same number of towers
 

kayn1n32008

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maybe I need to clarify, we have hired a consulting firm, but there is part of the study that I have a hard time believing. Our county is 700+ square miles. one of the options they gave us was staying VHF with 5 radio towers spaced across the county.. the options for the 700 or 800 upgrade show the same number of towers


Depending on the type of coverage(mobile/portable/portable on belt), terrain and vegetation type&density it could very well require 5 sites.


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Project25_MASTR

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Sounds like they analyzed for line of sight portable coverage.

Now the big question is flaws with existing coverage (where are the holes). Assuming those existing two sites are owned, where does the coverage need to be extended to? Are you interested in having portable coverage or mobile coverage (assuming either VRS or X10DR like device when not in vehicle)?
 

902

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BTDT... good luck,

Can someone point my in the right direction.. We are looking at upgrading our public safety radio system. I'm wondering if there are any tools out on the net that would show my the average signal coverage from a radio tower depending on the frequency.. currently we are in the VHF range and have a fairly large county. 8th largest in the state of Iowa with over 700 sq miles. right now we only have 2 towers and since narrow banding our coverage has suffered. One of our options is joining with a neighboring county that currently is running an 800 Mhz system. i'm curious as to how many towers we would need for complete coverage with an 800 system as apposed to how many towers we would need if we stayed with our current VHF system.

the county is Clinton County Iowa if you would like to look up the county size on the internet
Yes there are tools. However you are entering a danger zone. It's like trying to diagnose cancer by using WebMD or a Usenet newsgroup. The values and thresholds depend a lot on accuracy of supporting data - like having a terrain and clutter database, and custom antenna patterns. Being competent enough to interpret the results is another issue. You might be able to look at an X-ray and see "stuff," but a trained and experienced radiologist look at the same image and see things you don't. It's not just coverage, but timing and simulcast overlap, too.

How many sites do you need? The short answer is it's irresponsible for anyone to even guess. If anyone gives you a concrete number at this stage, either run away or tell them to have a seat in the back of a police car until everything is all over so they won't hurt themselves. I will give you a few generalizations: 700 and 800 MHz have different characteristics than VHF, as well as entirely different rules on how they can be deployed. 800 MHz can have 3 categories, each with different rules - NPSPAC, whose oversight comes from a "regional planning committee" of your peers within the state, general pool, and vacated spectrum from Sprint-Nextel (if it's available). 700 MHz also has a regional planning committee, often the same people on 800, but not always. The RPCs will review your professional engineering firm's or vendor's filings, then either approve them or specify power levels and antenna directional patterns to put the signal where you say it's needed.

You can't just put in the biggest antenna and tower at the highest location and run the most power you can get away with, like you might have been able to on VHF.

Now, you'll need to satisfy these questions - are you looking for vehicle coverage, portable coverage outside, portable coverage "on the hip" outside, portable coverage "on the hip" inside buildings? Do you have high rise construction (the building doesn't necessarily need to be 87 floors to be "high rise construction")? Do you have parking garages, tunnels, etc.? Do you have deciduous or coniferous forestation? Do you need coverage inside schools, detention facilities, and hospitals? Do you want a delivered audio quality (DAQ) of 4.0 or 3.4? Do you NEED a DAQ of 4.0 or 3.4? Everything in these questions relate back to how many sites you need. MY experience in MY system was that I had 5 VHF "Wide Pulse Astro" digital simulcast transmitter sites with 9 voting receivers. The system that replaced it was many more sites with locations shared between other counties because we specified a DAQ of 4.0, with in-building coverage where needed, and "on the hip" coverage. The overall cost for the project was in the tens of millions of dollars, and there are ongoing costs required to update firmware and devices as their technical support sunsets. Modern radio systems are not "set and forget." They're in constant tweak and update mode. You'll probably need two FTEs or a very specific maintenance agreement with a service vendor who is in a position to respond and restore (not just send a warm body out) within 4 hours of notification.

When I went through this, my group hired a consulting firm that developed a performance specification and put a performance-based bid out into the street. In essence, you don't tell the bidders how many sites you need, you tell them what you expect out of the system and then, in their response, they tell you - along with the dollar figure. Then your selection committee goes through the proposals and makes an educated choice. Another warning - the places you had for VHF may not be the places you'll end up with being proposed. Have your county attorney stand by for land acquisition, eminent domain proceedings, and lots of public (and environmental) NIMBY backlash because of newer and possibly taller towers in different locations.

Here's the bottom line: there is a delta between "want", "need", and "get."

You might want something that reaches out 40 or 50 miles a few counties in each direction. You need something that reliably and safely covers your jurisdiction and a little bit around it. You ultimately get something the taxpayers and politicians are willing to budget and stand up for. Have your facts straight, because everyone who shows up at your board meetings will be a Philadelphia lawyer and will be wearing yellow shirts with towers on them so the local media can interview them about property values, migratory birds, burial grounds, and just general "I don't like it" statements. It's all part of the deal. Expect it.

Put out a "Request for Professional Qualifications" and get a competent consultant who will direct your project. Understand that you are in control of the consultant, not the other way around. You define your needs, your consultant translates those needs to an RFP. Then, when your'e ready to move forward, you'll need to bring on a competent project manager independent of the selected vendor.

Good luck. This'll be one of the highlights of your career (and then you can "retire").
 

NDRADIONUT

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When you narrow banded if everything was kept the same except the bandwidth change your coverage should have gotten slightly better not worse...
 

902

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maybe I need to clarify, we have hired a consulting firm, but there is part of the study that I have a hard time believing. Our county is 700+ square miles. one of the options they gave us was staying VHF with 5 radio towers spaced across the county.. the options for the 700 or 800 upgrade show the same number of towers

Well... depending on co-channel and adjacent channel relationships with other licensees, increasing your footprint on VHF might not be possible without directional antennas or the requirement to protect another incumbent operation that is currently not experiencing any interference from your legacy operations.

Like I said in the other post, my county had 5 VHF transmitter sites and a total of 9 voting receiver sites - the 5 transmitter sites, plus 4 more in problem areas. I forgot to mention we had about 600 square miles that was rolling hills in one corner and floodplain in the other, along with several cities and the rest, exurbs. It went to 11 sites in the county, and several outside of it for 800. I'm sure my successor will probably need a few more fill-in sites in some of the valleys.

I can't stress this enough: YOU NEED TO GET A CLEAR DEFINITION FROM YOUR CONSULTANT ABOUT COVERAGE PROBABILITY! And you need that right now before you move further. You might have some firing to do. The characteristics of VHF are significantly different from 800 and I'm also having a hard time figuring how your consultant came up with the same number of sites for each. It almost sounds like they are spec'ing a system that works for vehicle radios and not so much for portables. Maybe they'll plug in a Futurecom VRS system in there as a stop-gap. You and your board might be okay with that. But you need to know that upfront, or you'll have a couple of surprises coming.
 

Project25_MASTR

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When you narrow banded if everything was kept the same except the bandwidth change your coverage should have gotten slightly better not worse...


Generally not the case. Generally this is what you see with system users who are running older radios that narrow banded but not equipment serviced to perform well on narrowband.


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jeatock

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Coverage loss when going from wide to narrow is normally more a function of marginal equipment on wide-band being reprogrammed to narrow without checking alignment and tuning. A sloppy wide system will fail miserably when the equipment has less signal deviation to decode. Simply put, the RF signal should still be just as tall, but doesn't jitter left and right in frequency as much, making off-frequency issues and interference more evident.

Wide or narrow, analog or digital, the signal that carries the traffic is still a spike of RF energy that has to be at least 9db taller than the local noise floor and interference sources everywhere you expect the radios to work. The ONLY difference between formats is the width of the spike and how it jitters left and right to carry information. The difference between VHF, UHF and 800 is how the signal is attenuated by foliage, hills, rocks and buildings; each has its place.

Analog systems will always have some static and noises, and do not trunk well or allow tons of bells and whistles. Digital systems have bells and whistles, multi-site trunk beautifully, and always sound perfect until they go blissfully silent because the codec can't add enough frog DNA to a weak or interfered RF signal and reassemble the voice.


There are three kinds of "Propagation Studies":

1- A study done on freeware by someone who has a limited grasp of the black arts of RF and subject to the limitations of the freeware. Luck is a major factor.

2- A study delivered by an "accredited professional" who bought a $6,000 software package and had the gamer-geek from IT make the pretty maps. Check every paragraph for the name of another county to see if his report is cut-and-paste from someone else's "professional study".

3- A study delivered by some old guy who wears steel-toed boots, always has a screwdriver in his Carharts, carries a full set of tower climbing gear, LDF6 prep tools and an $20,000 Anritsu Site Master in his 4x4, and has you accompany him around your county logging RSSI to see if the pretty maps generated by his $15,000 software package were accurate.

You are going to get what you pay for.


Be wary of the bias of radio vendor supplied propagation studies. Some vendors have a history of getting you to buy their 'adequate' system but then selling system 'improvements' as a separate non-bid contract addition when you discover coverage sucks.


Looks like Clinton County is mostly flat but with abrupt elevation changes along the rivers. That can be a tough nut to cover without multiple towers, especially with 800 that does not penetrate trees and rough terrain like VHF does. This is a public safety system; a real matter of life and death. Ask for a MLS map with +12db above floor uplink and downlink coverage for at least two sites in every likely critical location, and include both a 9db in-building and a 9db foliage attenuation.
 
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cmdrwill

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3- A study delivered by some old guy who wears steel-toed boots, always has a screwdriver in his Carharts, carries a full set of tower climbing gear, LDF6 prep tools and an $20,000 Anritsu Site Master in his 4x4, and has you accompany him around your county logging RSSI to see if the pretty maps generated by his $15,000 software package were accurate.

My kind of 'guy'. You have to have someone who does system evaluation like that guy. I could leave a few things out..
 

jeatock

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Five does seem to be to number of required TX/RX sites for VHF 95% portable uplink coverage at -90 to -100db , with an additional RX-only in South Cliinton. 800 is ugly.
 
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xmo

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You should at least consider going on the new State of Iowa system.

The contract has been awarded and the system is currently in final design review. An aggressive roll-out is planned over the next two years.
 
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