Dual (VHF/UHF) Band DMR HT?

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TheWArthur

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Any word on anyone coming out with dual band VHF/UHF DMR handheld? Are their currently any out there?
 

N4KVE

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Not yet. Remember DMR radios are designed for commercial use. The fact that hams have adapted them means nothing to the mfr's, and sales to hams probably account for less than 5% of total DMR production. Other than a Yaesu FTH-2070 VHF/UHF ht made more than 20 years ago, I'm not familiar with any dual band VHF/UHF radio.
FTH-2070
 
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MrGClips

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Are they, or are they NOT Digital?

I'm interested in the same thing.

When I searched, I've got a bunch of Dual Band Digital radios, so I'm a bit confused about the whole "digital" segment.

For e.g. the Yaesu Original FT-1DRB HD is advertised as a Digital Dual-band VHF/UHF. So, is it digital or not? I don't get it. Link:
http://www.amazon.com/Yaesu-FT-1DRB-Transceiver-Connector-FNB-102LI/dp/B00OPBUMIK/

There are many Dual-Band radios out there advertised as "Digital" from Motorola and others too, so what's up with them? Are they or are they not Digital?
 

nd5y

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When I searched, I've got a bunch of Dual Band Digital radios, so I'm a bit confused about the whole "digital" segment.
There are several different digital voice formats that are not compatible with eachother.
The Yaesu radio you linked to only works with other Yaesu radios that use Yaesu's C4FM mode. It is not compatible with DMR which is what the OP was talking about.
 

MrGClips

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There are several different digital voice formats that are not compatible with eachother.
The Yaesu radio you linked to only works with other Yaesu radios that use Yaesu's C4FM mode. It is not compatible with DMR which is what the OP was talking about.

Very confusing. So now the different digital radio makers all have their own system (like Windows/Mac/Linux) that are not compatible and each only work within the same system? Why would they do that? Analog radios work fine with one another, so I really don't get it. I need to research it I guess.

And I thought I just go and get one of those digital dual-band HTs or Mobiles and that's that. :(
 

KC8ESL

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The one buzzword people are skating around here by calling it "c4fm", while technically correct, is "yaesu system fusion". Designed(adapted is more correct) by Yaesu specifically for the amateur service and adapts to both analog and digital users through yaesu digital ready repeaters. I've seen it used in limited fashion and it definitely seems to have merit if utilized correctly.

Other digital modes that are around and NOT compatible with any other digital mode are as follows but not limited to:
P25
DMR (mototrbo)
Dstar

Any radios that can do the above digital modes can ALSO BE USED in analog and have no issues working with one or another (again, in ANALOG).

Enjoy the digital road.
 

Project25_MASTR

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The one buzzword people are skating around here by calling it "c4fm", while technically correct, is "yaesu system fusion". Designed(adapted is more correct) by Yaesu specifically for the amateur service and adapts to both analog and digital users through yaesu digital ready repeaters. I've seen it used in limited fashion and it definitely seems to have merit if utilized correctly.

Other digital modes that are around and NOT compatible with any other digital mode are as follows but not limited to:
P25
DMR (mototrbo)
Dstar

Any radios that can do the above digital modes can ALSO BE USED in analog and have no issues working with one or another (again, in ANALOG).

Enjoy the digital road.

Motorola does make some digital only DMR radios. SL7000 for example.
 

Project25_MASTR

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Very confusing. So now the different digital radio makers all have their own system (like Windows/Mac/Linux) that are not compatible and each only work within the same system? Why would they do that? Analog radios work fine with one another, so I really don't get it. I need to research it I guess.

And I thought I just go and get one of those digital dual-band HTs or Mobiles and that's that. :(

They've always had their own.

Commercially, P25, DMR and NXDN are the standards. P25 is the North American public safety standard. Anyone who is anyone in the the public safety market has a P25 system (with a handful of vendor specific features). It began with C4FM technology and is now using that along side TDMA technology. DMR uses TDMA to divide a frequency into two time slots which allows one to fit two talk paths in the 12.5 kHz channel on the same repeater (P25 Phase 2 was based off of this feature). There are roughly 6 major vendors who sell DMR radios and infrastructure. The other big one is NXDN which uses a 6.25 kHz channel. It's got Kenwood, Icom and Alinco for equipment.

In the amateur world, there is DStar, Icom (soon to be Kenwood as well) and System Fusion (Yaesu).

Take your pick. All of the commercial formats can work mixed mode (analog/digital in/analog out or auto in/auto out) in some form. I haven't played with DStar enough to know what it is or isn't good at (though it seems to be just as painful to program as commercial formats).
 

MrGClips

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And how many different radios would one need to purchase to do all of those digital modes? :)

Exactly! :D

I watched a couple of videos about the topic and heard a few things I didn't like at all. For e.g.
- You have to register your radio (!!!) by name, unit number, etc. in the provider's system (like Motorola) in order to be able to use your radio on their Digital system. Seriously? I don't think so! :(
- Motorola charges $360- for 3 years of software updates, then you have to pay them again to continue. :(
- Different systems are NOT compatible with one another on the digital operation at all! Motorola's is the biggest one (for obvious reasons), so if you get another one, there is a good chance you won't find a digital repeater anywhere.

So, in the end, most people will be using the analog part in order to avoid all the extra costs and the hassle, but pay for those radios extra-high prices for being "digital". Well, if all that is true as I understand it, then: NO, THANK YOU! They can keep their precious control-freak watching you 24/7 overpriced systems for themselves! :( :( :(

But again, I only watched a few videos, so maybe I'm wrong about it and I misunderstood the whole thing. (... or not ... :( )
 
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KC8ESL

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N2nov, considering they're band specific as well, quite a few to get the whole spread!

Mr.g, sounds like digital isn't for you. If you're on a LOCAL DMR repeater and want to have a qso, no problem, no sys admin, no "stun" command. Just like analog, but, well, digital. Same goes for the p25 mode. What you are referring to is the DMR-MARC system. If it isn't for you then there are lots of other facets of ham radio you may enjoy. Amsat anyone?

I have an xts3000. Solid radio. I would only trade it to trade up to a 2500 or 5000 (apx isn't even a dream yet). It's incredible what we can do with the mode and we're just scratching the surface. We don't even have a p25 or DMR repeater here in Cleveland (yet).

Oh, about the updates... you probably don't need them if you've had the radio 3 years. Just my opinion. It already works, right?
 

WA0CBW

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"KC8ESL"----I believe you did miss a few things. In the commercial world (from which these DMR radios have been adapted) every radio sends an ID consisting of a series of numbers. You can make up your own ID numbers as long as you don't have more than one on the system with the same number (just like you wouldn't want two telephone numbers to be the same). So if you want to be on the wide area network you get an ID number from the DMR-MARC group as they manage and assign ID's. If you are only using a local repeater you can make up your own as long as it isn't duplicated (otherwise a private call might go to the wrong radio). Unlike Fusion radios that send your ID, DMR radios send the ID number so if you want to know who is talking you create an "alias" in your radio matching that number with that persons call. There are several manufacturers making DMR compatible radios for less than $150. And these radios will do analog as well. Many people choose Digital radios for the features they offer. Other than Yaesu Fusion radios most DMR radios are adapted from the commercial world. So currently they don't yet have the features we are used to (like front panel programming, dual band, etc.) but they are coming. Fortunately we have the ability to choose what technology we want to use.
 
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N8OHU

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They've always had their own.

Commercially, P25, DMR and NXDN are the standards. P25 is the North American public safety standard. Anyone who is anyone in the the public safety market has a P25 system (with a handful of vendor specific features). It began with C4FM technology and is now using that along side TDMA technology. DMR uses TDMA to divide a frequency into two time slots which allows one to fit two talk paths in the 12.5 kHz channel on the same repeater (P25 Phase 2 was based off of this feature). There are roughly 6 major vendors who sell DMR radios and infrastructure. The other big one is NXDN which uses a 6.25 kHz channel. It's got Kenwood, Icom and Alinco for equipment.

In the amateur world, there is DStar, Icom (soon to be Kenwood as well) and System Fusion (Yaesu).

Take your pick. All of the commercial formats can work mixed mode (analog/digital in/analog out or auto in/auto out) in some form. I haven't played with DStar enough to know what it is or isn't good at (though it seems to be just as painful to program as commercial formats).
Um, no about D-STAR being as painful to program as the commercial stuff. At the basic level, which is all you need to get on a local repeater, it's no more difficult than programming an FM radio. The only two things that are different is needing your callsign (MyCall) and the repeater callsign and letter (RPT1, which is functionally the same as CTCSS); it's all the things that the protocol allows you to do with UrCall and RPT2 that makes it seem more complicated.
 

Thunderknight

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- You have to register your radio (!!!) by name, unit number, etc. in the provider's system (like Motorola) in order to be able to use your radio on their Digital system. Seriously? I don't think so! :(
For DMR's largest network, yes. Each user has a unique ID. Think of it as a digital version of your call sign. You ID by voice, so this is a digital ID. It's not necessarily per radio...you can use the same DMR ID on several radios, as long as you don't use them at the same time.
For other systems, such as P25, you can use whatever ID you want (as long as the repeater owner allows it).
But to clarify, Motorola is a manufacturer, not a provider. You don't register your radio ID with Motorola, you register it with the system provider or network. Just the same as joining a repeater club and giving them your call sign.

- Motorola charges $360- for 3 years of software updates, then you have to pay them again to continue. :(
For that one manuf of radios, yes. Although the software from Motorola will keep working after 3 years, you just won't get any new updates. From many others manuf, it's free.

- Different systems are NOT compatible with one another on the digital operation at all! Motorola's is the biggest one (for obvious reasons), so if you get another one, there is a good chance you won't find a digital repeater anywhere.
Different FORMATS are not. You can use the same P25 radio on many different P25 systems. Same with DMR, you can use the same DMR radio on different DMR systems.

You keep referring to Motorola - to be clear, they makes radios and repeaters, they don't run any (ham) systems. And they actually make 2 different formats of equipment. P25 and DMR (MotoTrbo). The DMR version is more popular with hams, but there are P25 ham repeaters out there too.

Just because a repeater is "Motorola" doesn't mean you need to use a Motorola radio. Connect Systems, for example, makes DMR radios too. That's what I use.
And I can use a Harris (GE/M/A-Com) radio on Motorola P25.
That's what is nice about standards based formats.
 

TLF82

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Um, no about D-STAR being as painful to program as the commercial stuff. At the basic level, which is all you need to get on a local repeater, it's no more difficult than programming an FM radio. The only two things that are different is needing your callsign (MyCall) and the repeater callsign and letter (RPT1, which is functionally the same as CTCSS); it's all the things that the protocol allows you to do with UrCall and RPT2 that makes it seem more complicated.

DStar could not be any more clunky and a horrible UI. They didn't take any time to smooth the process. They just threw something together. DMR/TRBO and P25 are really easy to program. P25 is extremely easy. To get on a P25 repeater all I need to do is enter in the two frequencies and the NAC (basically the PL tone) and I'm done. Nothing more nothing less. I gave away my Icom ID-880 because it was annoying to program compared to my Motorola gear.
 

TLF82

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Exactly! :D

I watched a couple of videos about the topic and heard a few things I didn't like at all. For e.g.
- You have to register your radio (!!!) by name, unit number, etc. in the provider's system (like Motorola) in order to be able to use your radio on their Digital system. Seriously? I don't think so! :(
- Motorola charges $360- for 3 years of software updates, then you have to pay them again to continue. :(
- Different systems are NOT compatible with one another on the digital operation at all! Motorola's is the biggest one (for obvious reasons), so if you get another one, there is a good chance you won't find a digital repeater anywhere.

So, in the end, most people will be using the analog part in order to avoid all the extra costs and the hassle, but pay for those radios extra-high prices for being "digital". Well, if all that is true as I understand it, then: NO, THANK YOU! They can keep their precious control-freak watching you 24/7 overpriced systems for themselves! :( :( :(

But again, I only watched a few videos, so maybe I'm wrong about it and I misunderstood the whole thing. (... or not ... :( )

You have to remember what this system was designed for. Commercial use. We've just adapted it to the ham world... The registration of the radio ID is just to keep track of things and so you can have someones name come up on the display of your radio if you wish. It's not like trunking where you have to have an ID number to affiliate with the system.

Yes you have to pay for the software but you are getting service with among other things. The software price has come down. Moto will sell you a subscription for TRBO CPS for less that $200/3 years now because they offer it via a download only option and they aren't mailing your a DVD.

Before you start slamming things you don't know anything about maybe you should research it a little more. And if its not for your then its not for you. Some of us enjoy it and like what it has to offer and are willing to pay to play. The radios are not cheap because they are on the forefront of technology and are commercial radios. They are built tough and with lots of technology.

A MotoTRBO radio can be used on the Hytera repeaters and several other manufactures systems who make ETSI DMR compliant systems. The same with P25 and NXDN/iDAS. They are standards for a reason.
 

MrGClips

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You have to remember what this system was designed for. Commercial use. We've just adapted it to the ham world... The registration of the radio ID is just to keep track of things and so you can have someones name come up on the display of your radio if you wish. It's not like trunking where you have to have an ID number to affiliate with the system.

- That sounds like big-brother to me that I dislike right there and then, because it's nothing else but yet another digital tracking system. :(

Yes you have to pay for the software but you are getting service with among other things. The software price has come down. Moto will sell you a subscription for TRBO CPS for less that $200/3 years now because they offer it via a download only option and they aren't mailing your a DVD.

- Gee, seriously? Wow! What a fantastic idea to stop sending out DVDs for software update! I guess they got the memo after a couple of decades! Now the price is only $200 due to this fantastic revelation! Truly impressed! LOL!!! :D

Before you start slamming things you don't know anything about maybe you should research it a little more. And if its not for your then its not for you. Some of us enjoy it and like what it has to offer and are willing to pay to play. The radios are not cheap because they are on the forefront of technology and are commercial radios. They are built tough and with lots of technology.

- Is that how overpriced, under-developed is described and promoted lately? Pay an unjustified amount for an un-developed system, so the developers will have the necessary funds on the back of the hobby community to actually work on something that will be useful in a few years? What "forefront of technology" are you talking about? Digital is nothing extraordinary, it's been around for decades, only the developers didn't bother to implement it into ham, perhaps because the market was/is still too small for it and the old analog system did a pretty decent job (still does as I can tell). Your opinion reminds me more of a corporate PR talk or some lobbyists trying to justify something for all the wrong reasons. DVD? LOL! That was the funniest part! Truly made me laugh! :D

A MotoTRBO radio can be used on the Hytera repeaters and several other manufactures systems who make ETSI DMR compliant systems. The same with P25 and NXDN/iDAS. They are standards for a reason.

If things go THIS way, then ham is going to be just another subscription type cellphone service in a few years, because once greedy shareholders get into the hobby with their personal ID based junk-services and their fees, then it will be business for profit only, nothing else. Hope the day never comes because that would be the end of ham as a "hobby", and no, I won't pay for their primitive junk-software or overrated radios and overpriced subscriptions or any other "excuses for a price" deals either. :(

Digital ham should be just a modern transition into a processor/software based solution for ham radios to replace the analog systems and not what this whole thing seems to be turning into. For all that "other" side, we already have smart devices with tons of free software, superior data transfer speeds that digital hams will never match, and all that with ton's of services and options for a lot less.

You are absolutely right; as things are right now as I see it, digital ham is definitely NOT for me. :(
 

Project25_MASTR

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You have to remember what this system was designed for. Commercial use. We've just adapted it to the ham world... The registration of the radio ID is just to keep track of things and so you can have someones name come up on the display of your radio if you wish. It's not like trunking where you have to have an ID number to affiliate with the system.

Yes you have to pay for the software but you are getting service with among other things. The software price has come down. Moto will sell you a subscription for TRBO CPS for less that $200/3 years now because they offer it via a download only option and they aren't mailing your a DVD.

Before you start slamming things you don't know anything about maybe you should research it a little more. And if its not for your then its not for you. Some of us enjoy it and like what it has to offer and are willing to pay to play. The radios are not cheap because they are on the forefront of technology and are commercial radios. They are built tough and with lots of technology.

A MotoTRBO radio can be used on the Hytera repeaters and several other manufactures systems who make ETSI DMR compliant systems. The same with P25 and NXDN/iDAS. They are standards for a reason.

To add to this, look at what you gain with TRBO CPS. You gain the ability to program (and perform firmware updates) of XPR 2500, XPR 3000, XPR 4000, XPR 5000, XPR 6000, XPR 7000, XPR 8000 (repeaters), SL300, SL7000, SLR 5000, and the digital versions of the commercial series radios (CP200d, CM200d/300d).

That's a lot of hardware capability for the price.
 

Project25_MASTR

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- That sounds like big-brother to me that I dislike right there and then, because it's nothing else but yet another digital tracking system. :(



- Gee, seriously? Wow! What a fantastic idea to stop sending out DVDs for software update! I guess they got the memo after a couple of decades! Now the price is only $200 due to this fantastic revelation! Truly impressed! LOL!!! :D



- Is that how overpriced, under-developed is described and promoted lately? Pay an unjustified amount for an un-developed system, so the developers will have the necessary funds on the back of the hobby community to actually work on something that will be useful in a few years? What "forefront of technology" are you talking about? Digital is nothing extraordinary, it's been around for decades, only the developers didn't bother to implement it into ham, perhaps because the market was/is still too small for it and the old analog system did a pretty decent job (still does as I can tell). Your opinion reminds me more of a corporate PR talk or some lobbyists trying to justify something for all the wrong reasons. DVD? LOL! That was the funniest part! Truly made me laugh! :D



If things go THIS way, then ham is going to be just another subscription type cellphone service in a few years, because once greedy shareholders get into the hobby with their personal ID based junk-services and their fees, then it will be business for profit only, nothing else. Hope the day never comes because that would be the end of ham as a "hobby", and no, I won't pay for their primitive junk-software or overrated radios and overpriced subscriptions or any other "excuses for a price" deals either. :(

Digital ham should be just a modern transition into a processor/software based solution for ham radios to replace the analog systems and not what this whole thing seems to be turning into. For all that "other" side, we already have smart devices with tons of free software, superior data transfer speeds that digital hams will never match, and all that with ton's of services and options for a lot less.

You are absolutely right; as things are right now as I see it, digital ham is definitely NOT for me. :(

No more tracking than analog (on the amateur side, having GPS enabled on large networks is discouraged on DMR).

Amateur radio sales make up less than 1% of the commercial communications market. Why would a manufacturer spend money trying to implement something specifically for it? It doesn't actually make any sense when you look at the large scale economics.

You seem to be really fond of analog FM, an adapted commercial mode being used on the amateur bands. By the way, your arguments are sounding very similar to those of many hams back in the 1970's when SSB began to be overtaken by FM.

Your outlook on subscription services is kinda out there (also it clashes with Part 97 regulations). No one is saying you have to go digital, you have to buy a Motorola radio, you have to register a DMR radio (you don't, it works without registration just preferred).

Many of us got interested in amateur radio through commercial service and wanting to understand the mechanics of it all. Many of us are active in commercial service as well as amateur service so we already have commercial equipment. Why spend the money on purpose built amateur (often lesser quality) equipment when we have the opportunity to adapt existing equipment and knowledge to learn/educate/experiment?
 
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