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Fire Station signaling on P25 Trunked

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SK63

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So it seems my city might switch over to the Kansas City Regional system which is P25 Phase 1 trunked. At the moment, they are analog UHF using QCII. How does signaling work using digital? Basically I'm trying to figure out if I can still listen to my area station without hearing all of the fire dispatched calls. Is the stations radio squelch opened by some other means now? I'm sure they aren't sitting there listening to all dispatched calls, especially at night, right?
 

BoxAlarm187

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There are a number of systems using VOIP and other non-RF protocols to alert fire stations now. Purvis, WestNet, US Digital Designs, etc. Although they could continue to use a VHF or UHF channel to alert the the stations, this is becoming a way of the past.
 

jeff

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They could maintain a conventional freq for paging and simulcast that on a TG. Or they could assign each station its own TG and use multicasting from the console. Or they could use VOIP with a simulcast on a TG. The county I live in uses VOIP in conjunction with their 800 P25 system, there is no way to just hear an individual stations alert.
 

SK63

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Yeah, pretty much assumed I was SOL. If, by chance, each station had it's own TG, I would be able to just listen to that group, right?
 

MTS2000des

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Most P25 systems use off the shelf IP alerting systems. Some of them run over a dedicated IP data circuit with RF fallback, other configurations can run off an IP25 core and usually have a radio inside provisioned as an packet device.

The system I am in the process of migrating my agency to is Mach Alert.
It is totally "silent" over the air, dispatching is done via an application which talks directly to the FSA box over either an IP data circuit or our P25 core. The alerting is instantaneous, has a positive confirmation (dispatchers know immediately an alert was received by a fire station, if it's acknowledged, and when the last man/woman out left the station).
 

BoxAlarm187

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MTS, if the apparatus is already on the street, how do they receive the call? Strictly by monitoring the MDC/MDT?
 

buddrousa

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You can also keep your old radio system and transmit the dispatch page on both radios at the sametime and get extra ISO points for having a backup dispatch system. That way your pagers still work also.
 

SK63

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You can also keep your old radio system and transmit the dispatch page on both radios at the sametime and get extra ISO points for having a backup dispatch system. That way your pagers still work also.

If they make the change at all, I would bet that's what they will do. Time will tell.
 

MTS2000des

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You can also keep your old radio system and transmit the dispatch page on both radios at the sametime and get extra ISO points for having a backup dispatch system. That way your pagers still work also.

In many cases, such as ours, this would mean maintaining a 26 year old legacy trunked system core, keeping RF channel resources on that core (which means they won't be available on the new system), and also keeping the old dispatch consoles online (Gold Elites) along with the CEB, and making extra work for the dispatchers having to essentially manage two dispatch screens.

Not practical to gain a few extra ISO points. I could see this for an agency who migrates from a single channel conventional system, but for the many like us who are upgrading from a legacy trunking technology to current technology, this just isn't practical, nor affordable, nor technically feasible.
 

buddrousa

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Our dispatchers cad system keys both radios and logs the times at the sametime 1 button.
Not if you are coming from a trunked system but the people moving from VHF AND UHF conventional systems like we did it was a good way to go. We kept 48 2tone VHF Minitor pagers operational along with our station alerting that was also 2tone VHF and if you get to drop your ISO rating a 1 point drop or raise will change your insurance prices a good bit. In some places 10% or more and to people on fixes income that is a large change.
In looking up a small town 10,000 the ISO rating going from 9 to 7 would save $200,000.00 a year to the people of the small town. Most small towns and counties that do not have 100's of fire trucks and thousands of firefighters onduty are in the 6 7 8 9 ISO ratings due to manpower equipment and budget problems and they have to work very hard to save money for the people they serve. A small town near me has 300 people in it they have received grants for a brush truck, new pumper, and a new tanker they use hand me down equipment from other departments and they run their department off the profit from the coke machine their department budget is 0 tax dollars and less than what 1 fulltime firefighter makes in most fulltime departments.
 
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sfd119

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In looking up a small town 10,000 the ISO rating going from 9 to 7 would save $200,000.00 a year to the people of the small town. Most small towns and counties that do not have 100's of fire trucks and thousands of firefighters onduty are in the 6 7 8 9 ISO ratings due to manpower equipment and budget problems and they have to work very hard to save money for the people they serve. A small town near me has 300 people in it they have received grants for a brush truck, new pumper, and a new tanker they use hand me down equipment from other departments and they run their department off the profit from the coke machine their department budget is 0 tax dollars and less than what 1 fulltime firefighter makes in most fulltime departments.

The department doesn't receive additional revenue from the ISO rating savings that the taxpayer's have.

Most small towns and counties that do not have 100's of fire trucks and thousands of firefighters onduty are in the 6 7 8 9 ISO ratings due to manpower equipment and budget problems and they have to work very hard to save money for the people they serve.

Perhaps they should approach their townships for increase on their budget. You either have a Fire Department, or you don't. Townships need to realize this.

A small town near me has 300 people in it they have received grants for a brush truck, new pumper, and a new tanker they use hand me down equipment from other departments and they run their department off the profit from the coke machine their department budget is 0 tax dollars and less than what 1 fulltime firefighter makes in most fulltime departments.

ISO rating has nothing to do with receiving grants?

---

Back to the subject at hand, OP they may keep the UHF system up, or move to an IP Based solution. If its the later, you won't be able to monitor it. Guess you'll just have to wait and see what happens.
 

buddrousa

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And the sole purpose for a fire department is for the people they serve not the city.
This town has no provisions for any tax money the tax rate for the town is $2 county and $2 city with the assessment at 25% the average yearly tax the city collects is $200.00 they may have 100 houses of which the Fire Department receives $0.00 . Never stated ISO had anything to do with grants I was stating if not for grants their department would not get by. This town has no stores or industry. NOW STOP THE ATTACK I was offering a solution to a small town which is more than you have done in this post.
 

K4SVT

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Paging

This is what we have in Brevard County for Fire Calls not P25 but will be soon still on lame EDACS..when it sits on channels..as Paging20 or Paging40 is what i can pick up with my 7200 at my location..it would come up quiet for 2 seconds and then rings a old fire bell..all automated..they type the call in the computer page it out and then meet on disp 1 or disp 2 and explain the call..mpo i just dont think its cost effective.
 

greenthumb

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Tons of ways to skin this cat - one of the more 'native' P25 methods I have seen is via call alert/radio page. Motorola (and other radios) can be programmed to close a contact (which really means you can do anything you want at that point) when they receive a call alert/radio page, so that's one way to take care of it.
 

n2hbx

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City of Orlando uses a dedicated TG to alert fire stations. Stations are call alerted by radio ID. We take horn and light outputs from the radio to trip station lights and alert tones, and to route dispatch audio to the station speakers.

Larry
 

dwh367

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Owensboro, KY (Daviess County)
So it seems my city might switch over to the Kansas City Regional system which is P25 Phase 1 trunked. At the moment, they are analog UHF using QCII. How does signaling work using digital? Basically I'm trying to figure out if I can still listen to my area station without hearing all of the fire dispatched calls. Is the stations radio squelch opened by some other means now? I'm sure they aren't sitting there listening to all dispatched calls, especially at night, right?

We switched to a P25 Phase 1 trunked system a couple of years ago. The previous system was EDACS. On that system they used QCII to a alert the fire stations. On the new P25 system they are using DTMF (touch tones) for selective calling.
 
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