Why Yaesu System Fusion?

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RFI-EMI-GUY

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Yaesu Fusion marketing information is very confusing. It is bizarre that they are marketing a totally incompatible format. Why not DMR? Or at very least a P25 platform? Or better yet, software designed radios and repeaters that can be flashed with one of the other.
 

Project25_MASTR

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C4FM doesn't have "modulation tones" whatever that is.

Modulation levels I think is what he was looking for.

Just something to ponder, P25 P1 uses IMBE vocoders and P2 uses AMBE vocoders. However, part of Phase 2 is that it be backwards compatible with Phase 1 and if you look at any Phase 2 manufacturer's specs they list only the AMBE vocoder. AMBE is simply the next generation of vocoder. It can do everything IMBE could and more...

Yaesu had the option do provide some support for something other than their re-invented wheel but didn't...
 

Gunnar_Guy

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Yaesu Fusion marketing information is very confusing. It is bizarre that they are marketing a totally incompatible format. Why not DMR? Or at very least a P25 platform? Or better yet, software designed radios and repeaters that can be flashed with one of the other.
The questions that everyone has been asking for a year. It's curious to me why Yaesu didn't select compatibility with DMR or P25, particularly since Fusion is very similar to P25. But maybe it had to do with Motorola at the time owning Vertex Standard. Who knows. But Fusion seems to be gaining some foothold, there's just under 1,000 of them worldwide already. Compared to about 2000 D-STAR, 1100 DMR and 200 P25
 

sycho

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AMBE or IMBE is just the vocoder (the method to compress the voice). Fusion, D-STAR, DMR, NXDN, P25, Tetra... they are different systems with different protocols and modulations, not interoperable between them.

For a ham manufacturer, is easier and cheaper to design their own simple protocol for ham radio use than adopting a standard. Besides that, it's said that it gives them a feeling of protection in the niche market of amateur radio.

Icom had an advantage with D-STAR, just because they were the first.
 

Project25_MASTR

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The questions that everyone has been asking for a year. It's curious to me why Yaesu didn't select compatibility with DMR or P25, particularly since Fusion is very similar to P25. But maybe it had to do with Motorola at the time owning Vertex Standard. Who knows. But Fusion seems to be gaining some foothold, there's just under 1,000 of them worldwide already. Compared to about 2000 D-STAR, 1100 DMR and 200 P25


Motorola let go of vertex in 2012.

Wouldn't you buy a turnkey repeater for $500 capable of not isolating fm analog users?


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Gunnar_Guy

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Motorola let go of vertex in 2012.
They spun the amateur/marine/aviation division back into Yaesu Jan of 2012 and at that point Vertex went from a 80/20 jointly owned company to a wholly owned subsidiary of Motorola that they now call Vertex-Standard LMR.

Regardless, Fusion is Yaesu and I suspect work on it started while Yaesu was still part of Vertex. The FTM-400 came out fall of 2013, so maybe they could have developed Fusion and designed, certified and began manufacturing equipment in 18 months, but that seems pretty quick.

So I'm just assuming that there was a product road map somewhere along the line that someone at Vertex and/or Motorola had influence. What factored into the decision to roll a new standard might have been backburnered plans or carry over knowledge from the VX-Pxxx radios.

I dunno, it doesn't really matter. Fusion does tailor more to ham, utilizing the wider bandwidth and using call signs for ID, so that makes sense. As to competing with D-STAR, that's justified because C4FM is accepted as an improvement over GMSK. So it probably wasn't just a random move to muddy the waters intentionally. I'll give them the benefit, that Yaesu thinks it's moving the hobby forward.
 

djs13pa

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The questions that everyone has been asking for a year. It's curious to me why Yaesu didn't select compatibility with DMR or P25, particularly since Fusion is very similar to P25. But maybe it had to do with Motorola at the time owning Vertex Standard. Who knows. But Fusion seems to be gaining some foothold, there's just under 1,000 of them worldwide already. Compared to about 2000 D-STAR, 1100 DMR and 200 P25


Kicker is how many are used for fusion? I know a few repeaters bought cheap and only get used in analog mode.


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RFI-EMI-GUY

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I saw just reference to a $500 "club special" for the Fusion Repeater. It ended Dec 31. I wonder how many got sold? No doubt they are giving away the razor to sell the blades. That explains the proprietary aspect. Still they would sell more subscriber radios if they could be flashed P25/DMR or whatever.
 

N4KVE

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Kicker is how many are used for fusion? I know a few repeaters bought cheap and only get used in analog mode.


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Same with the ones around here. The clubs buy them up, as $500 for a new repeater is a great deal. But because of the poor cooling, Yaesu states the 50 watt repeaters should be run at 20 watts to prevent overheating. The repeaters are run in "mixed mode" so the repeater can receive analog, or digital, but will transmit only analog. This way users with older analog radios will not be left out. So Yeasu gives these repeaters away, but doesn't sell enough digital radios to make up for the loss. Sort of like when I go to the tire store for my $20 oil change [where they lose $] & they try to sell me repair work that I don't need. I then bring my car to a friend [a GM mechanic for 25 years] & he tells me my car is perfect, & the tire shop is trying to sell me unnecessary repairs. A few guys I know did set up a fusion repeater, & use it 100% digital, but the clubs are using them in "mixed mode" because not everyone [actually not many] will buy digital radios. By the way, DMR is growing by leaps, & bounds here. 6 different DMR UHF repeaters to use.
 

Gunnar_Guy

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Same with the ones around here. The clubs buy them up, as $500 for a new repeater is a great deal. But because of the poor cooling, Yaesu states the 50 watt repeaters should be run at 20 watts to prevent overheating. The repeaters are run in "mixed mode" so the repeater can receive analog, or digital, but will transmit only analog. This way users with older analog radios will not be left out. So Yeasu gives these repeaters away, but doesn't sell enough digital radios to make up for the loss.
Getting Fusion capable repeaters installed is the first step to getting any base of users. It's a chicken-and-egg question. Same with the radios. Maybe there's a critical tipping point when the whole system starts to click.
By the way, DMR is growing by leaps, & bounds here. 6 different DMR UHF repeaters to use.
DMR is hot right now and certainly /the/ digital mode to be a part of, but I'd not kick a FTM-400 out of my truck if one jumped in.
 

djs13pa

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Agree that it's chicken and the egg but that only works if there is an incentive. Using them to replace old analog and running them so analog can use it is it an incentive to change technology. It's just a cheap repeater. Run it in digital only mode then you have incentive but alienate lots of folks.

While DMR sounds best and is growing, not currently running with a DD mode equivalent. DStar costs a lot and sounds rougher than DMR but has DD mode.

Where does fusion fit?

I think if they had a Motorola quality DMR unit that did not have Motorola proprietary add ins, Yaesu would have done better. Even better implement a ham DD type mode on DMR then clean up against DStar.


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RFI-EMI-GUY

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C4FM doesn't have "modulation tones" whatever that is.

I have read a lot of scientific papers where PHD's refer to specific radio frequencies as "tones", "monotonal" etc. it seems to be a recent thing.
 

nd5y

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C4FM is four level FSK. There are no audio tones.
It's not like feeding audio tones into the mic jack of an FM tranmsitter.
 

k6cpo

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Kicker is how many are used for fusion? I know a few repeaters bought cheap and only get used in analog mode.


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Same with the ones around here. The clubs buy them up, as $500 for a new repeater is a great deal. But because of the poor cooling, Yaesu states the 50 watt repeaters should be run at 20 watts to prevent overheating. The repeaters are run in "mixed mode" so the repeater can receive analog, or digital, but will transmit only analog. This way users with older analog radios will not be left out. So Yeasu gives these repeaters away, but doesn't sell enough digital radios to make up for the loss. Sort of like when I go to the tire store for my $20 oil change [where they lose $] & they try to sell me repair work that I don't need. I then bring my car to a friend [a GM mechanic for 25 years] & he tells me my car is perfect, & the tire shop is trying to sell me unnecessary repairs. A few guys I know did set up a fusion repeater, & use it 100% digital, but the clubs are using them in "mixed mode" because not everyone [actually not many] will buy digital radios. By the way, DMR is growing by leaps, & bounds here. 6 different DMR UHF repeaters to use.

A lot of the clubs in San Diego County (CA) took advantage of the excellent price on the Yaesu System Fusion repeaters. Most of them went up in AMS mode. When the repeater is in this mode, it will transmit in whatever mode it hears. In other words, if the repeater hears an analog signal, it will respond in analog and if it hears a digital signal, it will respond in digital.

My club finds this to be an excellent way to operate. It allows those who don't have fusion radios to use the repeater and still allows digital communications. Since our local CERT uses our repeater and their radios are all analog, operating in AMS is an advantage to them as well.
 

Gunnar_Guy

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Most of them went up in AMS mode. When the repeater is in this mode, it will transmit in whatever mode it hears. In other words, if the repeater hears an analog signal, it will respond in analog and if it hears a digital signal, it will respond in digital.
Does it do cross mode? IOW, digital in/out <-> analog out/in? That seems like the critical piece to grow acceptance and be inclusive.
 

AK9R

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If I understand it correctly, the Fusion repeaters, when in AMS on both receive and transmit, will transmit whatever the last mode was that they heard.

If you and I are talking on a Fusion repeater in digital mode and a third party keys up in analog mode, the repeater will switch to analog. Assuming that your radio and my radio are also set for AMS, our radios will switch to analog. When the third person is done transmitting, we can switch our radio back to digital and resume our conversation in digital.

The Charlotte Digital Radio Group put together a nice comparison of D-Star, DMR, and System Fusion:
http://www.charlottedstar.org/Comparison of Amateur Radio DV.pdf
 

Gunnar_Guy

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If I understand it correctly, the Fusion repeaters, when in AMS on both receive and transmit, will transmit whatever the last mode was that they heard.

If you and I are talking on a Fusion repeater in digital mode and a third party keys up in analog mode, the repeater will switch to analog. Assuming that your radio and my radio are also set for AMS, our radios will switch to analog. When the third person is done transmitting, we can switch our radio back to digital and resume our conversation in digital.
In this description how would someone with an analog radio know there's a digital QSO going on? If they are observant they should see the S-meter jumping or maybe hear noise, but it's possible they'd have no idea and just key up, right? Obviously good etiquette would dictate that you check by asking and upon your analog TX the repeater would switch modes. But wouldn't they potentially stomp on an in-progress QSO?
 
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