wb6uqa
Member
I heard the FCC may grant lifetime licenses . A lot of hams start young and don't renew. I had a friend in high school who let it expire .I told him the new license are good for 10 years. He got his general back..
FCC Lifetime License proposal
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TheSpaceMann
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Yep, or they should allow an easy renewal anytime after the original license expires, not just up to 2 years as it stands today.
Life Time Ham Licenses
I heard that too, the LifeTime license- it was proposed years ago... We will see, won't we, if it ever comes about (lol).
.............But maybe this time is the charm.
When you think about it, historically the ham license was a 2 part thing- and Operator's License, and the Station License. Oh, but do I know of what I speak! With your indulgence, allow me to step back a few years:
My first ham license was as a G, but I got a Yank license very shortly there-after. It was a Conditional Class (Does anyone remember those??- the "Real" hams called them Mail Order Licenses, something you got by sending in a coupon off the back a box of cereal. It was a General Class license for those of us that lived more than 175 miles from a FCC examiner. No one questioned London, England as being far enuff away! You where granted a "Conditional ' license that could be recalled, retested---- whatever, --at the whims of the FCC... though I don't think very many ever committed any radio crimes sufficient to require that.
---------BTW, I took my FCC exam under the eagle-eye of an US Air Force Col. at USAF Base West Ruislip, UK., while a non-comm sent and received my code. This test was *Far !* more intimidating then than when I had taken my first exam with the British Postal Wireless Inspectors....
But, you are asking; -- Coyote, Where are you going with this??
---Well, let me continue-- I did not have a US address for a station license, so I applied for - and was issued-- an Operator's License. I did not get any Callsign. It was not until I went to the US and had a US address that I applied for a Station License (I became a WB6-- if it matters-- long ago changed to something else)
So-- Operator Licenses are nothing new- and I think today they should be separated from the Station license. Your original exam credits should not, by my standards, expire with your station license.
--- Do I dare hold my breathe... yet again??
........................CF
I heard that too, the LifeTime license- it was proposed years ago... We will see, won't we, if it ever comes about (lol).
.............But maybe this time is the charm.
When you think about it, historically the ham license was a 2 part thing- and Operator's License, and the Station License. Oh, but do I know of what I speak! With your indulgence, allow me to step back a few years:
My first ham license was as a G, but I got a Yank license very shortly there-after. It was a Conditional Class (Does anyone remember those??- the "Real" hams called them Mail Order Licenses, something you got by sending in a coupon off the back a box of cereal. It was a General Class license for those of us that lived more than 175 miles from a FCC examiner. No one questioned London, England as being far enuff away! You where granted a "Conditional ' license that could be recalled, retested---- whatever, --at the whims of the FCC... though I don't think very many ever committed any radio crimes sufficient to require that.
---------BTW, I took my FCC exam under the eagle-eye of an US Air Force Col. at USAF Base West Ruislip, UK., while a non-comm sent and received my code. This test was *Far !* more intimidating then than when I had taken my first exam with the British Postal Wireless Inspectors....
But, you are asking; -- Coyote, Where are you going with this??
---Well, let me continue-- I did not have a US address for a station license, so I applied for - and was issued-- an Operator's License. I did not get any Callsign. It was not until I went to the US and had a US address that I applied for a Station License (I became a WB6-- if it matters-- long ago changed to something else)
So-- Operator Licenses are nothing new- and I think today they should be separated from the Station license. Your original exam credits should not, by my standards, expire with your station license.
--- Do I dare hold my breathe... yet again??
........................CF
I moved the lifetime license discussion to a separate thread.
Here's the link to the ARRL story about the proposal, actually, a petition for rule making:
FCC Seeks Comments on Petition to Grant Lifetime Amateur Radio Licenses
Here's the link to the ARRL story about the proposal, actually, a petition for rule making:
FCC Seeks Comments on Petition to Grant Lifetime Amateur Radio Licenses
Token
Member
Personally, I think licenses need an expiration date. I see no real advantage to lifetime licensing.
I am one of those folks who got into ham radio young (and Frostbite, yes I know what a Conditional is, I went from Novice, to Conditional, to General), and then let my license laps. My laps was long enough it was actually easier to get a new license rather than get my old one back. So I retested, and got a new license.
Really, how hard was that? Not very, and I was gone from the hobby long enough that a refresher on the regulations was not a bad thing at all.
Yeah, I lost my old WA callsign, but I could have that back as a vanity if I really wanted it (I have a vanity now, and it is not my original callsign).
And that brings us to the core reasons I think lifetime licensing is not great idea.
The callsign I have today used to be used by someone else. Someone who (in this case) has been out of the hobby (license expired) for 25+ years. It so happens this person very recently died, so they would have had the callsign for 20+ year of inactivity. With lifetime licensing this person, and many like them, would still be tying up that callsign, despite being inactive, and probably even after death.
In this nation we do not have an automated death notification system that is 100% functional. When a person dies their death might not make it into various data bases. For sure if they receive Social Security this would be easy to correct, but not so much in other cases. In order for lifetime licensing to work, and clear unused licenses / callsigns on death, the FCC data base would have to be tied to multiple others in the country, at least to the IRS and SS stuff as those are the most likely to show a death.
Outside of death there are other instances. For example the 19 year old who gets a license only to find ham radio is not for him and never has any interest in using it again, he would then tie up that callsign for up to 75 more years, for no reason at all.
The system we have now periodically purges unused licenses / callsigns. This is a good thing. The system we have now is extremely easy to renew under, you can do it online in minutes, or hard copy if you want. And if you go away from the hobby for a few years and decide you want back in the testing has never been easier and faster.
T!
I am one of those folks who got into ham radio young (and Frostbite, yes I know what a Conditional is, I went from Novice, to Conditional, to General), and then let my license laps. My laps was long enough it was actually easier to get a new license rather than get my old one back. So I retested, and got a new license.
Really, how hard was that? Not very, and I was gone from the hobby long enough that a refresher on the regulations was not a bad thing at all.
Yeah, I lost my old WA callsign, but I could have that back as a vanity if I really wanted it (I have a vanity now, and it is not my original callsign).
And that brings us to the core reasons I think lifetime licensing is not great idea.
The callsign I have today used to be used by someone else. Someone who (in this case) has been out of the hobby (license expired) for 25+ years. It so happens this person very recently died, so they would have had the callsign for 20+ year of inactivity. With lifetime licensing this person, and many like them, would still be tying up that callsign, despite being inactive, and probably even after death.
In this nation we do not have an automated death notification system that is 100% functional. When a person dies their death might not make it into various data bases. For sure if they receive Social Security this would be easy to correct, but not so much in other cases. In order for lifetime licensing to work, and clear unused licenses / callsigns on death, the FCC data base would have to be tied to multiple others in the country, at least to the IRS and SS stuff as those are the most likely to show a death.
Outside of death there are other instances. For example the 19 year old who gets a license only to find ham radio is not for him and never has any interest in using it again, he would then tie up that callsign for up to 75 more years, for no reason at all.
The system we have now periodically purges unused licenses / callsigns. This is a good thing. The system we have now is extremely easy to renew under, you can do it online in minutes, or hard copy if you want. And if you go away from the hobby for a few years and decide you want back in the testing has never been easier and faster.
T!
K7MEM
Member
I had a similar situation. I obtained my Novice license in 1965. At that time, the Novice license was for 1 year and was non-renewable. So if you wanted to stay licensed, you had to upgrade. If you didn't have your code speed up to snuff (13 WPM), the only choice was to go for the Technician license. That, however, turned out to be a bad move. While I enjoyed my time working 2 Meters AM, the Technician license didn't have any low band privileges. So between that, and life in general, I just let it expire and retested for the Novice, a few years later. By then, the Novice had better privileges and was renewable. I think the Technician license was also better, but I had no need for it.
That Novice license got me a Class A German license (DA2EU) that I used while in Germany. Some years after I returned to the US,I took all the necessary tests for an Extra, over a 3-4 month period. That included the 13 and 20 WPM Morse tests. So you are right. it wasn't that hard at all.
Martin - K7MEM
p.s. The Novice license no longer allows you to get a Class A German license. My experience was over 30 years ago and things have changed. I believe you would currently need a General or Extra.
Your FRN Registration becomes a lifetime operator's license?
I don't think the issue is so much a lifetime Callsign (ie: station license,) but a lifetime Operator's license. The FCC already gives lifetime credit for sections 3 and 4, why not the entire exam? I don't think there is anything more noble about a person who renews their license every 10 years by filling out a form v.s one that doesn't. There are no requirements like in past years that you certify you had operated so many hours during the license period- or any retesting etc.
The station license is another matter- if it lapses, you would still be in the data bank. You could reapply for a new Station License ("callsign") at anytime- even long after the 'grace period'. Your license today has an FRN number, and like a Social Security number, it just becomes meaningless after your death- plus, evidently these FRN's don't seem to stain the system at all . In effect, your FRN number would become your de-facto lifetime "Operator's License"
..............CF
I don't think the issue is so much a lifetime Callsign (ie: station license,) but a lifetime Operator's license. The FCC already gives lifetime credit for sections 3 and 4, why not the entire exam? I don't think there is anything more noble about a person who renews their license every 10 years by filling out a form v.s one that doesn't. There are no requirements like in past years that you certify you had operated so many hours during the license period- or any retesting etc.
The station license is another matter- if it lapses, you would still be in the data bank. You could reapply for a new Station License ("callsign") at anytime- even long after the 'grace period'. Your license today has an FRN number, and like a Social Security number, it just becomes meaningless after your death- plus, evidently these FRN's don't seem to stain the system at all . In effect, your FRN number would become your de-facto lifetime "Operator's License"
..............CF
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I didn't have time earlier this morning to post my thoughts on this subject. I do now and I will be brief with my opinions.
1. Amateur radio licenses should have an expiration date. If someone gets licensed and then loses interest, they aren't likely to bother with notifying the FCC that their license can be cancelled. Even now, with a 10-year license, there are thousands of licenses (my opinion) in the FCC database for deceased or inactive licensees. Licenses must have an expiration date in order to purge the database.
2. In my radical view of the situation, license renewal should be contingent on re-testing. The rules and procedures change enough in 10 years that some form of refresher test in order to renew the license is necessary in my opinion. Yes, I would gladly go to a VE session every 10 years in order to renew my amateur radio license privileges.
I am 100% opposed to a lifetime amateur radio license.
1. Amateur radio licenses should have an expiration date. If someone gets licensed and then loses interest, they aren't likely to bother with notifying the FCC that their license can be cancelled. Even now, with a 10-year license, there are thousands of licenses (my opinion) in the FCC database for deceased or inactive licensees. Licenses must have an expiration date in order to purge the database.
2. In my radical view of the situation, license renewal should be contingent on re-testing. The rules and procedures change enough in 10 years that some form of refresher test in order to renew the license is necessary in my opinion. Yes, I would gladly go to a VE session every 10 years in order to renew my amateur radio license privileges.
I am 100% opposed to a lifetime amateur radio license.
Coyote-Frostbite has the right idea. Use the FRN as the "Operator License" that never expires. The ham must still renew his "Station License" (their callsign) every ten years. If they forget to renew or don't because of non-interest, then their callsign goes back into the pool. However, if they decide to "renew" after the 2-year grace period, then they will be issued another callsign without having to retest by using the FRN that never expires.
Isn't this what already happens? They don't toss your FRN if your ham license lapses, do they? Or, am I not understanding the suggestion?
Thanks,
nd5y
Member
You can have multiple licenses under one FRN.
You can add or delete license and the FRN isn't affected. Other services with multiple locations and licenses do this all the time.
Expired, cancelled and terminated licenses are still shown in the ULS for many years. I'm not sure why and I don't think the amateur service is any different as far as the ULS goes.
I don't think deleting all your licenses automatically deletes the FRN I think you have to do that separately. I haven't tried to do that yet.
You can add or delete license and the FRN isn't affected. Other services with multiple locations and licenses do this all the time.
Expired, cancelled and terminated licenses are still shown in the ULS for many years. I'm not sure why and I don't think the amateur service is any different as far as the ULS goes.
I don't think deleting all your licenses automatically deletes the FRN I think you have to do that separately. I haven't tried to do that yet.
The main complaint is that people that forget to renew after the 2 year grace period have to start from scratch and take the test(s) over again. Sure, they may have the same FRN, but they must retake the test(s) and get a new callsign.
The suggestion that Coyote-Frostbite made makes sense to me in that the FCC should use the FRN as a means to show that you passed your test(s) and that you don't need to take them again, even after you forget and your license (callsign) gets put back into the pool. You'll still get a new callsign, but you won't have to retake the tests.
Thank you Rescue!
.... And I will respectfully disagree with you, W9BU. ( also a
Now, if you will- please indulge me, I am going to get a bit scholarly-
........from The Webster Collegiate Dictionary, 7th edition - (sorry, I am dating myself) - defines a "License" as, in part:
....."a permission granted by competent authority to engage in a business, occupation or activity otherwise unlawful
.....A license does not signify, in itself, any attainment in the field licensed, but as simply society's approval to engage in that activity."
.......... Now, without getting too boring, let me give a personal example.
I have a license to practice medicine. I was awarded a diploma by my Alma Mater testifying that I showed enuff of- whatever-- to have graduated from the school with the degree of MD. Society, however, always questioning the authority of any medical school (as they always do, and for good reason!) questioned me on my skills to practice medicine. They- Society- through Government, said that I must satisfy the Societal Standards before society allowed me that license to practice my art on its citizenry. This is a wise move by any responsible state, and it is as old as the hills. Thus I was required to take separate government examinations ('board exams') in order to get the approval of Society to practice my arts upon them....the License
A Ham License is not a Certificate of Proficiency- a "Diploma"- like one issued by, say the Poison Spider Radio Club- after successfully passing their course to be a Ham. Maybe the good people of Poison Spider ARC say you are knowledgeable enuff to operate a ham station-- but----- maybe you are not. The separate exam by the FCC -the US Federal Government- certifies you and thus protects the interests of the American people. It could be a requirement of the FCC to have such a Poison Spider ARC certificate first before sitting for such testing (but fortunately it isn't.) If the interests of the people are such that a retesting of its radio licensee's is so important as to protect their interests, then this licensing agency has the lawful authority to do so. But in the case of ham radio is it in the interest of the public, and worth an agency's resources ($) to do so?
http://wireless.fcc.gov/commoperators/index.htm?job=terms_license
The above link is to an official FCC web site. Please note that all FCC Commercial Licenses are now *Lifetime.* Personally, I have what was a formerly a "First Class 'Phone" license taken and issued to me when my college need an engineer-in-charge at our campus AM Station (another story.) Today it has morph'd into a *Lifetime* GMDSS license. I have not tuned a broadcast transmitter in goodness-knows how many years-- but if this license is still a legal requirement (is it??) to do so, I have society's approval to tune away.
My point in all this is to stress the importance of divorcing the skill attainment (the Diploma) from the authority to act (the License.) Ham's pride themselves on their attainment, but the License is but a minor a sign of that attainment. Anyone that has earned awards for CW skills, WAS, WAC, their published articles in the magazines on a homebrew projects.... geez--- the list is endless, these are displays of proficiency- these are their "Diplomas.' If my Medical Board doesn't, and more to the point, the FCC- doesn't think that I have to be retested every license renewal, then why burden the licensee, and by extraction, society, with useless,costly and burdensome re-testing?
In summary, let me say again, if the FCC commercial licenses are Life Time, what makes the Ham License so special that it isn't? Your FRN should become a Life Time operator's license.
..................................... CF
.... And I will respectfully disagree with you, W9BU. ( also a
Now, if you will- please indulge me, I am going to get a bit scholarly-
........from The Webster Collegiate Dictionary, 7th edition - (sorry, I am dating myself) - defines a "License" as, in part:
....."a permission granted by competent authority to engage in a business, occupation or activity otherwise unlawful
.....A license does not signify, in itself, any attainment in the field licensed, but as simply society's approval to engage in that activity."
.......... Now, without getting too boring, let me give a personal example.
I have a license to practice medicine. I was awarded a diploma by my Alma Mater testifying that I showed enuff of- whatever-- to have graduated from the school with the degree of MD. Society, however, always questioning the authority of any medical school (as they always do, and for good reason!) questioned me on my skills to practice medicine. They- Society- through Government, said that I must satisfy the Societal Standards before society allowed me that license to practice my art on its citizenry. This is a wise move by any responsible state, and it is as old as the hills. Thus I was required to take separate government examinations ('board exams') in order to get the approval of Society to practice my arts upon them....the License
A Ham License is not a Certificate of Proficiency- a "Diploma"- like one issued by, say the Poison Spider Radio Club- after successfully passing their course to be a Ham. Maybe the good people of Poison Spider ARC say you are knowledgeable enuff to operate a ham station-- but----- maybe you are not. The separate exam by the FCC -the US Federal Government- certifies you and thus protects the interests of the American people. It could be a requirement of the FCC to have such a Poison Spider ARC certificate first before sitting for such testing (but fortunately it isn't.) If the interests of the people are such that a retesting of its radio licensee's is so important as to protect their interests, then this licensing agency has the lawful authority to do so. But in the case of ham radio is it in the interest of the public, and worth an agency's resources ($) to do so?
http://wireless.fcc.gov/commoperators/index.htm?job=terms_license
The above link is to an official FCC web site. Please note that all FCC Commercial Licenses are now *Lifetime.* Personally, I have what was a formerly a "First Class 'Phone" license taken and issued to me when my college need an engineer-in-charge at our campus AM Station (another story.) Today it has morph'd into a *Lifetime* GMDSS license. I have not tuned a broadcast transmitter in goodness-knows how many years-- but if this license is still a legal requirement (is it??) to do so, I have society's approval to tune away.
My point in all this is to stress the importance of divorcing the skill attainment (the Diploma) from the authority to act (the License.) Ham's pride themselves on their attainment, but the License is but a minor a sign of that attainment. Anyone that has earned awards for CW skills, WAS, WAC, their published articles in the magazines on a homebrew projects.... geez--- the list is endless, these are displays of proficiency- these are their "Diplomas.' If my Medical Board doesn't, and more to the point, the FCC- doesn't think that I have to be retested every license renewal, then why burden the licensee, and by extraction, society, with useless,costly and burdensome re-testing?
In summary, let me say again, if the FCC commercial licenses are Life Time, what makes the Ham License so special that it isn't? Your FRN should become a Life Time operator's license.
..................................... CF
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nd5y
Member
I don't think they could do that. The FRN isn't a license and doesn't contain any information like that. They would probably have to in some form create separate operator and station licenses.
nd5y
Member
They did away with commercial broadcast endorsements around 1984 or so whenever they changed to GROL. At that time they made it so all you needed was a Restricted Permit to operate a broadcast station. Then around 1994 or so they did away with that. Now you don't need any operator license at all for commercial broadcast stations. The licensees are responsible for ensuring whoever they hire as engineers and operators are competent to operate and adjust the trasnmitters, keep logs, etc.
Hi Guys--
I am throwing around the FRN as an operators license very loosely. It could be something else-- I really don't know what all is in that data base. But my idea remains, a simple traceable tag to your license attainment, one that it will remain thru out your life.
..................... CF
I am throwing around the FRN as an operators license very loosely. It could be something else-- I really don't know what all is in that data base. But my idea remains, a simple traceable tag to your license attainment, one that it will remain thru out your life.
..................... CF
Renewal, maybe. But the callsign should expire. There is no reason to hold a callsign captive for a lifetime. There are a ton of vanity callsigns that could never have been assigned had the original license holders been able to keep them "in reserve".
Besides, how would the FCC track deceased licensees? There are already licenses held by deceased people for up to 12 years. Isn't that long enough?
For what it's worth, here in Canada we have licences for life. Hobby still seems to be alive...
Token
Member
Really? Has anyone said lifetime licensing would kill the hobby? Reintroducing the CW requirement would not kill the hobby either, but that does not mean it would be in the best interest of the hobby or that everyone would agree it needs to be done. For the record, I am not suggesting reintroduction of the CW requirement, I am just using it as an example of something that would not necessarily be good for the hobby, but that as proven historically would not kill the hobby either.
Re the original proposal. The FCC recognizes lifetime credit for elements 3 and 4, but requires retesting of element 2 after the grace period has expired (it has been this way a couple of years now). I think this is a pretty decent approach. Element 2 is less technical and more regulatory and procedural. In order to reactivate a long lapsed license the ham would probably have to at least take a look at current regulations to make sure he understands any changes that might show up on the test.
Allowing a ham who has been demonstrably away from the hobby for 20 years to just pick up his license is asking for issues. What band allocations have changed? What power levels and modes have changed? What safety requirements have changed?
Yes, I know that a ham who has been inactive but just renewed his license over the years might have the same holes in understanding, but it is somewhat less likely than the guy who has totally not even thought about the hobby in 20 years.
Forcing a very mild review of current regulations and techniques after a long absence from the hobby is not a bad thing, nor is it particularly difficult.
T!
KC4RAF
Member
+1 with Voyager.
The call signs would never be able to be used as vanities status. Because of expiration of call signs, that's how I was able to get mine, KC4RAF.
The call signs would never be able to be used as vanities status. Because of expiration of call signs, that's how I was able to get mine, KC4RAF.
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