Florida Funding for FHP Radio's stopped

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ElroyJetson

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I have always questioned whether or not $LER$ was worth its large price tag. Look at the number of frequencies allocated per site and you soon realize that it's a very low capacity system for the area it covers, and the number of state agencies that actually have a need to talk across wide areas is very few, and their need to do that is rare.

And for many years, it's been a proprietary, single vendor system, which is hardly a sound choice for a state government to be choosing.

They're working on a P25 upgrade but it's in its infancy.

A far more sensible way to address the niche that SLERS fills today is to negotiate cooperative agreements with all agencies that have or will have P25 trunking systems, interconnect them as needed via switches and gateways, and then FHP and other multi-county agencies will be able to use those systems for their longer range communications needs without having to have their own site infrastructure, for the most part.

Of course, this would requires a considerable effort to plan out every P25 system to be part of a statewide network via those switches and gateways. But only certain designated talkgroups would routinely work across systems.

Realistically speaking, any public safety P25 system going into the state should be implemented in just such a coordinated manner ANYWAY.

I know for certain that the county I live in (Brevard) has proven effective inter-system interoperability with all neighboring counties. They can relay talkgroups from one system to another, regardless of system type. EDACS, SmartZone, P25 Phase 1, P25 Phase 2, it doesn't matter. A number of counties already have cross-platform county to county interoperability on demand and if this principle were extended to all counties in the state, SLERS would be redundant and unnecessary.

THAT is a direction I think the state should head in.

The only disadvantage, in their minds, would be that FHP probably wants ownership of its own communications sites and infrastructure and would not like to be a customer of every county's local systems.

But I think that both technical and cost-benefit analyses of these ideas would validate them as workable concepts that save money for the state in the long term AND improve coverage for FHP and other state agencies.
 

902

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If I've read it correctly, my read is that they have not ceased funding, but that they may be at a fork in the road to consider other systems. The big problem is that one of Florida's governors handed sites, backhaul, and other infrastructure to the manufacturer as a "here, you do it." Any "new" system will be exponentially more because of site acquisition and ground-up (literally) construction of every site. That might require very unpopular things like eminent domain proceedings to build out.

The frequencies "belong to" Florida, but the infrastructure no longer does.

Might be a perfect opportunity for P25 ISSI, and proof of compliance between Motorola, Harris, and whomever else. At least there is band-commonality on 800 MHz throughout most of the state. Had I been a part of the decision process (be very scared if I were...), I might have built a skeletal mobile-level network throughout the state and offered individual counties and cities the opportunity to add to it to augment coverage and capacity.

The other thing with the article is that they refer to Harris and Las Vegas in the same sentence. It's probably unfair to characterize EDACS' performance to OpenSky. I've been trained on SmartNet systems, but dealt with two EDACS systems over the years. I can't say anything bad about the reliability of the EDACS protocol with probably billions of delivered messages without error. Most of the problems I've seen revolve around insufficient coverage. That usually leans more toward a political funding issue more than a technical one.
 

sflmonitor

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A far more sensible way to address the niche that SLERS fills today is to negotiate cooperative agreements with all agencies that have or will have P25 trunking systems, interconnect them as needed via switches and gateways, and then FHP and other multi-county agencies will be able to use those systems for their longer range communications needs without having to have their own site infrastructure, for the most part.


The only disadvantage, in their minds, would be that FHP probably wants ownership of its own communications sites and infrastructure and would not like to be a customer of every county's local systems.

But I think that both technical and cost-benefit analyses of these ideas would validate them as workable concepts that save money for the state in the long term AND improve coverage for FHP and other state agencies.

This has always been a problem. It reminds me of the federal IWN project that never was. Yes, IWIN exists in a couple of places but it was supposed to be a nationwide federal trunking system consisting of a pool of frequencies and infrastructure from Homeland Security, Justice, and Treasury. But it fell through. Now we have, at least here in Florida, multiple sites from these agencies that often overlap and are sometimes co-located. But yet each agency wants to be the owner and controller of their site. So we the taxpayers end up with a very expensive bill.
 

TangoFox

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This has always been a problem. It reminds me of the federal IWN project that never was. Yes, IWIN exists in a couple of places but it was supposed to be a nationwide federal trunking system consisting of a pool of frequencies and infrastructure from Homeland Security, Justice, and Treasury. But it fell through. Now we have, at least here in Florida, multiple sites from these agencies that often overlap and are sometimes co-located. But yet each agency wants to be the owner and controller of their site. So we the taxpayers end up with a very expensive bill.

Well, TBH the system is crap. Half the time the transmissions are garbled and digital.

Although, I do fully support a SLERS system, I think it should be better done like North Carolina did, with individual agencies also using it.
 

radiomanNJ1

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This has always been a problem. It reminds me of the federal IWN project that never was. Yes, IWIN exists in a couple of places but it was supposed to be a nationwide federal trunking system consisting of a pool of frequencies and infrastructure from Homeland Security, Justice, and Treasury. But it fell through. Now we have, at least here in Florida, multiple sites from these agencies that often overlap and are sometimes co-located. But yet each agency wants to be the owner and controller of their site. So we the taxpayers end up with a very expensive bill.

Aside from the profit motive for the operators who do you think is pushing :FIRST NET:?
 

tech2461

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AaaaAAdAeW

SLEERS... The money pit.

If you look at Florida public safety you have the FHP, FDLE, Fish and Game, Forrest Fire, Corrections, Juvinile Justice, State Attorney and DOT. Now really think about the radio traffic and what each agency does. FHP does road patrol and accident investigation. FDLE is essentially a detective agency. Fish and Wildlife are basically game wardens, Forrest Fire is self explanatory. Corrections, DJJ and probation have very limited field units and mostly operate inside an institution. So who is really left? DCF? Why would social services case workers need radios when they would likely be better off with a cell phone? Child protective services have been handed off to the county Sheriff. How much actual radio traffic do they all generate? Here where I am, the two county area of Manatee and Sarasota has a combined 9 troopers on duty at a time. Go into the Hillsborough - Pinellas area and there are about 16-20 on duty at any one time. How much simultaneous traffic is there between all these agencies that needs some system like SLEERS? Then making it all EDACS to boot? I can understand using 800 since almost every county in the state is on 800, but I would have been more inclined to simply pay to expand some of the county by county 800 trunked systems and simply add talk groups to them for the agencies to use. The counties already had a tower system in place that would have negated the need for the state to build this litany of towers they put up for SLEERS. The only aspect that would have needed to be overcome would be the mix of Motorola trunking and Harris trunking schemes.
 

Reelfishguy

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Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that /\/\ had the original SLERS contract. They had problems implementing it, so requested the State give them a 2 year extension to install Phase 1. In exchange for the delay they would furnish a digital system in stead of the specified analog system. That delay was granted. Phase 1 had a tremendous cost overrun. Then as more areas were added to the system, more costs overruns. Agencies were asking for more portable equipment and that increased the number of towers needed. More money. So more counties were added to the system and with all of the money that had been spent, it looked like the system may not ever be completed. Then comes along MA-COM or whatever the company was called at the time with their proposal to change out all of the system that had been previously installed and replace it with their equipment as well as finish the rest of the state. Apparently /\/\ did not have a plan to control the spiraling costs and thus EDACS was installed. /\/\ has been locked out of this project since and now wants a piece of the pie. Cannot blame them. How many contracts has /\/\ locked other vendors out of? Just sayin---
 

SCPD

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I have seen many documentaries lately and ride along private videos where troopers cannot get out on portables. I have seen this also documented with the commercial enforcement end having issues most just using cell phones to phone in ncic checks and such. Is it really that bad?
 

902

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Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that /\/\ had the original SLERS contract. They had problems implementing it, so requested the State give them a 2 year extension to install Phase 1. In exchange for the delay they would furnish a digital system in stead of the specified analog system. That delay was granted. Phase 1 had a tremendous cost overrun. Then as more areas were added to the system, more costs overruns. Agencies were asking for more portable equipment and that increased the number of towers needed. More money. So more counties were added to the system and with all of the money that had been spent, it looked like the system may not ever be completed. Then comes along MA-COM or whatever the company was called at the time with their proposal to change out all of the system that had been previously installed and replace it with their equipment as well as finish the rest of the state. Apparently /\/\ did not have a plan to control the spiraling costs and thus EDACS was installed. /\/\ has been locked out of this project since and now wants a piece of the pie. Cannot blame them. How many contracts has /\/\ locked other vendors out of? Just sayin---
I'm not getting into the lockout game, but I do recall the first build-out of an ASTRO system just after Hurricane Andrew during the Chiles administration. It was a big deal within M and I had put in several applications to move to work on the project in south Florida (which were not accepted...). That was not a P25 system, but a proprietary VSELP digital system, if memory serves. It think it only made it as far as Fish and Wildlife using it.
 

trooper890

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Not really. Game and Fish Commission as it was known in those times was a user on the Phase I and II system, but as were all the JTF agencies. Everyone from FHP to the Lottery Police.

Phase I was VSELP voice for a time, but was converted to IMBE, (p25 voice channels) after Phase II came on in '98 that extended the system to Flagler County, and inland to Lake for troop D coverage.

It beat the pants of what is in place now, in Phases I and II. The poor guys that were using Micors and HT90's in the panhandle are far better off now, but SLERS 1.0 was better in so many ways.

RIP 2D3D
 

ElroyJetson

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I remember the political maneuvering around the system when it was Motorola and still in its first phase. By all accounts I've heard, it worked well where it had been implemented.

The State and Motorola had agreed on a timetable for the build-out and Motorola was on schedule, doing what the contract stipulated.

When the contract came up for renewal, the Good Ol' Boy Network went into high gear.

This was at a critical time for the company formerly and once upon a time known as GE Communications. ("We Bring Good Things To Life")

Brief history: GE partnered up with Ericsson, and together they developed the "16 Plus" trunked system, later renamed EDACS. EDACS was, and still is, an efficient, robust, and simple control channel based trunked radio system well suited for public safety usage. Ericsson-GE sold a PILE of EDACS systems.

Later, GE decided to get out of the business completely, and a start-up know as Comm-Net, basically consisting of the people running and operating GE's Lynchburg, Va. radio department, bought out GE's interests in the business and partnered up with Ericsson. For a while, they ran under the name Comm-Net/Ericsson and occasionally you'll find a radio on the used market that bears that name. But not many, because this phase didn't last very long.

Before too much time had passed, Ericsson changed directions and got out of the public safety communications market. At least, for now, and in North America. This left the people of Comm-Net holding the bag, all by themselves, without the supporting engineering staff of a global tech company to help them, for the first time ever.

Now called Comm-Net, they did not prosper. Sales were dropping and the end of the GE radio legacy seemed to be near. Lacking deep pockets and deep technical resources, they bid on any contract they could to try to stay afloat.

For reasons that utterly defy any semblance of sane decision making, The Florida Department of Managerial Services selected Comm-Net and awarded them what at the time was the largest radio contract in history. They selected Comm-Net despite Comm-Net not having any products in their catalog that met certain clearly defined stipulations in the contract regarding design features of the radios to be used, (no ramp buttons, mobile radios with a hand-held controller option must be available, to name two), and despite the fact that one of Comm-Net's proposals was actually illegal. (That being the proposal to revenue share excess capacity by leasing access to commercial enterprises, this being illegal as the system was to operate only within the public safety frequency pool, and thus making non-public safety usage illegal as per FCC rules and regulations.)

With a multi-billion dollar contract in hand, now Comm-Net was able to attract the attention and partnership of global electronics giant Tyco Electronics, under the M-A/Com brand name. (A name usually associated with microwave components.) A while later, the M/A-Com name was dropped, and now the company and the radios were simpy branded Tyco.

Then Harris bought them out, a few years ago, and has done more to build market share for this GE legacy business than any other owner since GE.

Anyway, there's the history of what's now Harris.

The contract, though, also made a point of saying "We can build the system out faster and cheaper than Motorola) when in fact Motorola was quite capable of installing the system as fast as required. But Motorola complied with the relaxed pace called for by the contract they were under. How can you blame them for complying with the letter of the contract?


The whole thing was a rotten deal.

I truly hope that Motorola gets its revenge.
 

TangoFox

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I have seen many documentaries lately and ride along private videos where troopers cannot get out on portables. I have seen this also documented with the commercial enforcement end having issues most just using cell phones to phone in ncic checks and such. Is it really that bad?

No it's not that bad. However, Troopers don't rely on radios nearly like city cops do.
 

KK4JUG

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No it's not that bad. However, Troopers don't rely on radios nearly like city cops do.

Perhaps they don't USE the radio as much as their urban counterparts but they definitely rely on them as much. You can't equate amount of usage with amount of reliance.
 

TangoFox

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Perhaps they don't USE the radio as much as their urban counterparts but they definitely rely on them as much. You can't equate amount of usage with amount of reliance.

Touche.

About half do not use shoulder mics. It's not unheard of for a trooper to be without a portable and be using their car radio for everything, though this is alot less common than it used to be.

In reality, they are more solo then their city counterpart. Backup may be 10-15 minutes away, or the nearest backup may be a city officer.

There is alot less communication between a trooper and dispatcher compared to their city counterpart.
 

N4DES

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Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that /\/\ had the original SLERS contract. They had problems implementing it, so requested the State give them a 2 year extension to install Phase 1. ---

This is not totally accurate. State Dept. Of Management Services (DMS) was totally responsible for all of the site development that included all towers, shelters, and generators, which was actually the biggest issue in deployment. Motorola was only responsible for the communications equipment that resided inside the shelters and hanging the antennas. The State even did their own coverage maps and I believe that Motorola was not held to a coverage gurantee because it was DMS who selected the TX/RX locations.

813A resides on two of those towers, and after my County payed 50% of the construction costs, still reside on those towers today. Site development was always with the State up until GE/Macomm/Harris showed up. So in short, the contracts were totally different in scope and there is no comparison.

Those State employees that I know who used both systems still wish that the Motorola system was still in place. They still complain about EDACS garbled audio even in the urbanized areas of SE Florida where certain areas were built for portable in-building coverage and have lots of signal overlapp.
 

AK4FD

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I do have to agree with the above comment, North Carolina really did a great job with it's state-wide VIPER system! And it is slowly getting each county & city agency on-board. I have family up there and listen to it all the time up there. Some of the audio is slightly distorted due to the simulcast of some agencies that still use their own Analog system and haven't fully converted to the VIPER Digital system yet, but still I feel that whoever's idea it was for the NC VIPER system definitely thought it out correctly!
 

Gatorman

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These big single vendor radio systems are a waste of taxpayer's money. There is no government entity that can pull something like this off without hosing it up. This doesn't apply to just radios. If I were a local government, I would be scared to death if I got roped into something like this. I'd rather depend on my own locally obtained expertise and be able to leverage it if something failed. Of course this cuts both ways but I can't help but laugh when I see all the issues these massive systems have come up with throughout the country. Yes, I'm cynical and don't see much good coming out of any bureaucracy. This is just one example. Kind of like Obama Care.
 
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