New Roanoke Ham DMR

Ghstwolf62 · Mar 31, 2016

Don't know if anyone is interested but there is a new amateur radio DMR repeater up in Roanoke.

440.6125

Repeaterbook lists it as offline but I was in Roanoke yesterday with it programmed up and it was working so not sure actual status.

Its on that PRN system instead of the regular DMR-Marc system which means the weird TGs and no WW or NA but at least DMR is now in this area.

Unfortunately for me it doesn't reach up here but still, its close.

AI7PM · Mar 31, 2016

Weird TGs? How so?

W2SJW · Mar 31, 2016

I just got back from a week of meetings in Charlotte. NCPRN uses 8 TG's per repeater:

PRN-Wide = 2
PRN-Local = 27500
Tac-1 = 8951
Tac-310 = 310
DCI Bridge = 3100
Southeast Regional = 3174
USA 1776 = 1776
Echotest = 9998
Clear Current Timeslot = 27000

The new Hytera machine in Charlotte carries more of the normal TG's, because it's on BrandMeister now...

Ghstwolf62 · Mar 31, 2016

K5BBC said:
Weird TGs? How so?

They don't carry the main standard DMR TGs such as 1=WW, 3=NA, and 13=WW-English.

Which means you can't talk over the most widely used TGs used in the DMR world.

They do have such as DCI and SE even though Virginia isn't in the SE region and they don't have the Virginia TG.

The 1776 and 27000 TGs mentioned are not listed for the repeater on Repeaterbook so don't know if they are there or not.

This is the info page on it
https://www.repeaterbook.com/repeaters/details.php?state_id=51&ID=14375

This is an example of the normal set up taken from DMR-MARC although that site is not correct for the PRN system.

DMR-MARC - Charlotte Hall, MD
description
K3OCM 443.1875 +5MHz, Color Code 6

Time Slot #1 - Group Call 1 = World Wide (PTT activated with 5 min inactivity timeout)
Time Slot #1 - Group Call 13 = WW English
Time Slot #1 - Group Call 3 = N. America
Time Slot #1 - Group Call 3173 = Mid-Atlantic Region
Time Slot #2 - Group Call 2 = Local

Others include DCI and Tac 310 same as PRN

W2SJW · Mar 31, 2016

My info came directly from one of their downloadable XPR7550 codeplugs.

Sent from my Galaxy S6 via Tapatalk 4

N4GIX · Mar 31, 2016

Sadly, many of the DMR-MARC subscribers are changing WWE and NA to PTT TGs, which frankly doesn't really make much sense.

Ghstwolf62 · Apr 1, 2016

W2SJW said:
My info came directly from one of their downloadable XPR7550 codeplugs.

Sent from my Galaxy S6 via Tapatalk 4

I wasn't questioning that just saying what is listed. Whether that is accurate is unknown obviously. I wasn't in Roanoke long enough to discover what all might actually be present.

Ghstwolf62 · Apr 1, 2016

N4GIX said:
Sadly, many of the DMR-MARC subscribers are changing WWE and NA to PTT TGs, which frankly doesn't really make much sense.

I agree.

Take out the main TGs and you don't know if there is anyone talking. Stupid but I've heard lots of complaints about DMR-Marc and their conduct so.........

From what I've read its to avoid tying up channels but when I suggested using the built in trunked capability in the M radios to expand availability the reception to that idea was....less than enthusiastic, lets say.

Made sense to me though.

N4GIX · Apr 2, 2016

Ghstwolf62 said:
I agree.

Take out the main TGs and you don't know if there is anyone talking. Stupid but I've heard lots of complaints about DMR-Marc and their conduct so.........

From what I've read its to avoid tying up channels but when I suggested using the built in trunked capability in the M radios to expand availability the reception to that idea was....less than enthusiastic, lets say.

Made sense to me though.

Many, dare I say most DMR users do not have /\/\ equipment, so trunking isn't a viable option even if the repeater owners wanted to spend >$10k for just one more repeater.

The "problem" isn't limited only to the DMR-MARC network either! The same issue arises regardless of network. The actual problem is one of resource utilization!

Most folks just getting started on DMR do not understand that whenever they key up any wide-area talk group, they are actually keying up every repeater actively monitoring that wide-area talk group!

In the case of Indiana Statewide on the Hoosier DMR Net, a single conversation will simultaneously key up 48 repeaters. Similarly, the Midwest talk group would key up nearly 400 repeaters!

Can you imagine how many repeaters are keyed up on North America, World Wide English or World Wide Global for just one conversation??? While the precise number will always vary since repeaters come and go, may already be in use on another TG, and so forth, the potential number can be as much as several thousand!

Therefore, instead of making all wide-area talk groups PTT only - which effectively makes them completely useless - the real answer is to put a timer on the c-bridge that will absolutely limit usage to a fixed period of time of 2 minutes or less, and ensuring that there are at least a dozen or so PTT on demand TGs that are common to all networks.

Then a hypothetical QSO might be:

Victor Echo 3 Mike Bravo Alpha, here is November 4 Golf India X-Ray.
N4GIX, VE3MBA here.
Mike, TAC310 seems to be vacant, can we QSY there?
QSL Bill, VE3MBA QSY TAC310
N4GIX QSY TAC310

reconrider8 · Apr 2, 2016

N4GIX said:
Many, dare I say most DMR users do not have /\/\ equipment, so trunking isn't a viable option even if the repeater owners wanted to spend >$10k for just one more repeater.

The "problem" isn't limited only to the DMR-MARC network either! The same issue arises regardless of network. The actual problem is one of resource utilization!

Most folks just getting started on DMR do not understand that whenever they key up any wide-area talk group, they are actually keying up every repeater actively monitoring that wide-area talk group!

In the case of Indiana Statewide on the Hoosier DMR Net, a single conversation will simultaneously key up 48 repeaters. Similarly, the Midwest talk group would key up nearly 400 repeaters!

Can you imagine how many repeaters are keyed up on North America, World Wide English or World Wide Global for just one conversation??? While the precise number will always vary since repeaters come and go, may already be in use on another TG, and so forth, the potential number can be as much as several thousand!

Therefore, instead of making all wide-area talk groups PTT only - which effectively makes them completely useless - the real answer is to put a timer on the c-bridge that will absolutely limit usage to a fixed period of time of 2 minutes or less, and ensuring that there are at least a dozen or so PTT on demand TGs that are common to all networks.

Then a hypothetical QSO might be:

Interesting so we have ncprn system here. My question has always been how could I talk to the norcal network from heard or vice versa? As I've heard people from this area talking on the norcal network

AI7PM · Apr 2, 2016

Ghstwolf62 said:
They don't carry the main standard DMR TGs such as 1=WW, 3=NA, and 13=WW-English.
......Which means you can't talk over the most widely used TGs used in the DMR world.
.......They do have such as DCI and SE even though Virginia isn't in the SE region and they don't have the Virginia TG. .......

Perhaps that wasn't the intention of the system to begin with. I use systems in Texas, Colorado, and Wyoming that are similar. One TG for local or a sub-region, and the other for regional or statewide. Works great for covering where you are, without getting knocked off of the system by a couple of guys talking 1500 miles away.

There are DMR-MARC and Hytera schemed repeaters here and there along the way, particularly along the Front Range of Colorado, and SW Wyoming.

Ghstwolf62 · Apr 4, 2016

N4GIX said:
Many, dare I say most DMR users do not have /\/\ equipment, so trunking isn't a viable option even if the repeater owners wanted to spend >$10k for just one more repeater.

The "problem" isn't limited only to the DMR-MARC network either! The same issue arises regardless of network. The actual problem is one of resource utilization!

Most folks just getting started on DMR do not understand that whenever they key up any wide-area talk group, they are actually keying up every repeater actively monitoring that wide-area talk group!

In the case of Indiana Statewide on the Hoosier DMR Net, a single conversation will simultaneously key up 48 repeaters. Similarly, the Midwest talk group would key up nearly 400 repeaters!

Can you imagine how many repeaters are keyed up on North America, World Wide English or World Wide Global for just one conversation??? While the precise number will always vary since repeaters come and go, may already be in use on another TG, and so forth, the potential number can be as much as several thousand!

Therefore, instead of making all wide-area talk groups PTT only - which effectively makes them completely useless - the real answer is to put a timer on the c-bridge that will absolutely limit usage to a fixed period of time of 2 minutes or less, and ensuring that there are at least a dozen or so PTT on demand TGs that are common to all networks.

Then a hypothetical QSO might be:

Could work I just don't know. I know there was talk about restricting DMR repeaters on the network to M only radios and some repeater owners had already done so but don't know if that is still taking off as an idea. Haven't been on the group for a while.

Apparently the non M stuff was causing problems according to numerous posts. The repeater owners didn't seem to like the cheap Chinese stuff or even CS radios which I think are great.

Trunked would allow much better use and distribution of resources as you say. One TG wouldn't tie up the repeater as multiple TGs could be active at one time. I understand M radios have trunked capability built in so there wouldn't be additional cost. Could be wrong of course.

Ghstwolf62 · Apr 4, 2016

K5BBC said:
Perhaps that wasn't the intention of the system to begin with. I use systems in Texas, Colorado, and Wyoming that are similar. One TG for local or a sub-region, and the other for regional or statewide. Works great for covering where you are, without getting knocked off of the system by a couple of guys talking 1500 miles away.

There are DMR-MARC and Hytera schemed repeaters here and there along the way, particularly along the Front Range of Colorado, and SW Wyoming.

Not originally but maybe now.

Originally they followed standard TGs of DMR-Marc. Then a while back they suddenly changed to what they are now.

What you're saying may well be the reason I suppose.

Ghstwolf62 · Apr 4, 2016

reconrider8 said:
Interesting so we have ncprn system here. My question has always been how could I talk to the norcal network from heard or vice versa? As I've heard people from this area talking on the norcal network

Probably through the DCI or Tac 310 TGs if I had to guess.

I think I remember them being prevalent out west on the systems out there. So that is probably how if I understand you correctly.

Of course any repeater can tie into any TGs the owner wishes to I believe.

As you can see they have put SE active in the Mid-ATL area instead of using the Mid-ATL TG. Its all what the repeater owner wishes to have and who they wish to associate with.

N4GIX · Apr 4, 2016

Ghstwolf62 said:
Trunked would allow much better use and distribution of resources as you say. One TG wouldn't tie up the repeater as multiple TGs could be active at one time. I understand M radios have trunked capability built in so there wouldn't be additional cost. Could be wrong of course.

For the Motorola users there would not be any more expense, but the non-Motorola users would be out in the cold.

For repeater owners though, the expense of a trunking system would be astronomical and quite impractical.

Educating users on how the system works one by one just isn't practical, as new folks are coming onboard every day.

Project25_MASTR · Apr 4, 2016

N4GIX said:
For the Motorola users there would not be any more expense, but the non-Motorola users would be out in the cold.

For repeater owners though, the expense of a trunking system would be astronomical and quite impractical.

Educating users on how the system works one by one just isn't practical, as new folks are coming onboard every day.

However Motorola has also begun to phase out their first generation of DMR trunking. When you sit down and look at it, trunking really isn't that expensive when looking at some other manufacturers options. For true trunking the controller alone for Motorola's Capacity Max will set you back about $30,000. For that you could get 10 fully unlocked (multi-site) Simoco repeaters in a Tier III setup (minus transmit combiners and receive multi-couplers) or 8 to 9 Tait repeaters in a similar configuration.

Now, some manufacturers do have pseudo-trunking that if a time slot is busy, the radio will use the available slot and the repeater will reroute accordingly.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

Stephen · Apr 4, 2016

Trunking would really not be astronomical.. TRBO repeaters are not 10,000 a unit either. 2 or 3 repeaters could be combined for a Capacity + system with very little extra equipment mainly a router. Though you are correct that any non Motorola or Hyterra radio would not be able to continue to be used.

The reason many repeaters are starting to place NA and WW on PTT is because most of the traffic is a waste of a time slot just to be left open all of the time. Here in the Dallas area it has actually been taken of a couple of repeaters because the DFW Metro channel and statewide are busy enough. There is a stand alone single repeater that people use if they want North America or WW. A lot of the traffic on NA is people stating where they are talking from and asking how "insert radio model/type" sounds.

trumpetman · Apr 4, 2016

Guys, stop guessing if you don't have a clue. A quick search of a price book online shows that enabling Linked Capacity Plus (the most reasonable means of trunking wide area with Motorola repeaters) is priced at just under TWICE the cost of a repeater by itself. While you can argue all day whether or not there are too many TGs or how the system is designed/utilized there is absolutely no doubt that trunking is out of the cards for the average repeater owner. That's not to say a small group doesn't deploy a linked capacity plus amateur system (I can think of 2 off the top of my head) but it's just not reasonable on a wide spread scale based on cost or infrastructure constraints. The latest literature I can find shows that 15 sites are the max for an LCP system. So while it would be a phenomenal idea for efficient use of spectrum and international conversations it's not as easy as some think. There are more problems than just cheap Chinese subscribers that can't do anything besides bleed over into the next time slot; infrastructure is an important factor too.

403 470 MHz
UHF 25 40W
1 AAM27QPR9JA7BN (XPR8400 32 MB)
$2,900

HKVN4099*
Linked Capacity Plus New System Deployment
Requires a 32MB repeater + XPR8380 0r XPR8400
$5,000.00

Ghstwolf62 · Apr 9, 2016

Update:
Showing as up and running now on Bent Mountain where previously it had shown offline. Lists coverage as Roanoke, Salem, Blacksburg, Bedford and Lynchburg. Map covers a large area including South Boston and Danville by the looks of it.

Final Talk Groups for use on Color Code 1 are
Assignment TS TG Access
TAC 310 1 310 PTT
DCI Bridge 1 3100 PTT
Southeast USA 1 3174 PTT
TAC 1 1 8951 PTT
Parrot 1 9998 PTT
LOCAL 1 27500
PRN System 2 2 F

Brought to you by W5CUI and Goat Mountain Radio Assoc.
https://www.repeaterbook.com/repeaters/details.php?state_id=51&ID=14375

RoanokeRadio · May 2, 2016

Good Day,

The Roanoke area has 2 DMR repeaters on the air.

The one you are referring to is in fact in the Bent Mountain area....

The DMR repeater on Poor Mountain is on 441.8875mhz +5.00.

It has been on the air for about a month.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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