Sharing of radio ID aliases originating from the system

I was originally going to put this in the DB admin forum, but it's not so much involving the DB (though discussions similar in nature have gone there before).

I have a NXDN system I am monitoring. I want to offer my data files (from DSD+) to others on RR who want to incorporate them into their own DSD+ configuration.

Now I know in the past, it has been said that at least on RR - be it in the wiki, or elsewhere on the site - identification of individual radios can happen if the radio identifies something other than an individual person. That is to say, assigning an alias of "Pumper Truck 1" to a particular radio number is OK, but linking "Captain John Smith" to a radio # is not.

Some (or all, I'm not sure) NXDN systems - including the one I'm monitoring - actually deliver system-originating aliases in the data stream. So without any intervention by the end user, they are seeing IDs for all kinds of radios, including both non-individuals and individuals.

Does this fall under the "no publish" rule, or since the system itself is delivering the data, is it moot? In other words, do I have to edit/censor my DSD+ data files to omit the personal identifiers before uploading, or not?

As Wiki Admin, my initial take on this is that if the data you wish to share could allow someone to link a radio ID with a specific user on that system, then we'd rather you not post that information in the Wiki.

I will listen to arguments one way or another on this topic.

The handbook from the database prohibits in the database, but in that section it states it may be placed in the Wiki for collaboration.

However, I believe publishing radio ID's anywhere on the website has been generally frowned upon, at least for public safety.

As a side note - depending on the system administrator ID's, aliases and the such can change fairly often and very rarely which has the ability to become stale/outdated.

Personally, I wouldn't for several reasons (on both sides of the radio so to speak) and the other major reason, the upkeep of such information can become fairly daunting.

Specically, I don't think we need some radio ID's to be more easily available to those who may desire to hijack one, especially one that could be linked to a console and booting it off the system or auto inhibt radios when system watch and the such will flag it and kill it.

PJH said:

The handbook from the database prohibits in the database, but in that section it states it may be placed in the Wiki for collaboration.

However, I believe publishing radio ID's anywhere on the website has been generally frowned upon, at least for public safety.

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There is no prohibition on publishing radio IDs in the RadioReference Wiki as long as those IDs do not relate to specific users by name.

We have many, many radio IDs published in the Wiki. They can be found by navigating through the various hierarchical categories of RIDs/UIDs.
http://wiki.radioreference.com/index.php/Category:RID/UID_Lists

PJH said:

As a side note - depending on the system administrator ID's, aliases and the such can change fairly often and very rarely which has the ability to become stale/outdated.

Personally, I wouldn't for several reasons (on both sides of the radio so to speak) and the other major reason, the upkeep of such information can become fairly daunting.

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I run Unitrunker on the local military base trunked system often. I was originally going to make a wiki page for radio IDs but they change too often. Several times in the past few years fire department radio IDs suddenly were used for flight line maintenance or buses or something.

nd5y said:

I run Unitrunker on the local military base trunked system often. I was originally going to make a wiki page for radio IDs but they change too often. Several times in the past few years fire department radio IDs suddenly were used for flight line maintenance or buses or something.

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The issue in this case is that the radio ID aliases I'm talking about are generated directly in the trunk system and pushed out on the control channel, so they're unlikely to change so dramatically (or if they did, they'd be updated by the system admin as appropriate).

The consensus seems to be that RR does not want to see them, so that's OK with me; I will not post them.

Jay911 said:

The consensus seems to be that RR does not want to see them, so that's OK with me; I will not post them.

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I'm not sure how you got that idea.

I am the RadioReference Lead Wiki Manager. As I posted above, the RadioReference Wiki contains plenty of radio IDs. If you want to post the IDs you've accumulated in the Wiki, you are welcome to do so as long as they don't relate to specific users by name.

Jay911 said:

The consensus seems to be that RR does not want to see them, so that's OK with me; I will not post them.

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I'm not sure why you came to that conclusion either.

You are definitely free to use the Wiki to collaborate on these types of data points, provided you aren't storing personal specific radio IDs there like "10034 -> Chief John Brown Portable Radio"

I understand the radio aliases that you are referring to for NXDN and DMR systems. Go for it..

I think there's still a misunderstanding here.

"These aliases" I'm referring to that RR doesn't want to see are aliases supplied by the system itself with personal names coming over the control channel linking to a radio ID. So everyone will know who is on radio 12345 for example. It's not something I'm doing any work to gather, other than to grab the saved file from DSD and upload it to the site.

My last reply wasn't supposed to be passive-aggressive or snotty, it was just an observation. If you don't want these aliases, that's your choice and no problem for me. I just didn't want to get in trouble for posting such a file that contains that data, so I wanted to find out if it was OK or not beforehand. Since it is not OK, I won't upload it.

Jay911 said:

I think there's still a misunderstanding here.

"These aliases" I'm referring to that RR doesn't want to see are aliases supplied by the system itself with personal names coming over the control channel linking to a radio ID. So everyone will know who is on radio 12345 for example. It's not something I'm doing any work to gather, other than to grab the saved file from DSD and upload it to the site.

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If that is the case, then why would we want to store this data in our database in the first place? If employees are replaceable, then radio aliases are too. We aren't going to put a process in place right now to track that, I'm sorry.

My last reply wasn't supposed to be passive-aggressive or snotty, it was just an observation. If you don't want these aliases, that's your choice and no problem for me. I just didn't want to get in trouble for posting such a file that contains that data, so I wanted to find out if it was OK or not beforehand. Since it is not OK, I won't upload it.

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DUDE, it's cool! This is one of those times where it is better to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission.

Seriously, if you want to post this stuff to the forums, and the wiki, go for it. Share away. The whole existence of the forums and the wiki is for us to collaborate. Once we see things that become structured enough to fold into the database, we'll do that.

With the advent of DMR and NXDN and many of these new digital voice systems (and their many variants), we are closely watching what is going on.

Be patient and keep your feedback coming. We're listening. Trust me.

I agree that, if the system itself is broadcasting the identities of individual users, then such data should fall under the same rules as all other information that is decoded from the system itself.

However, I also understand why creating a central collection of such data that is accessible to individuals who cannot obtain the data directly from the system is a sensitive issue. On balance, editing such data so that it distinguishes one ID from another without giving people's actual names is probably the best approach, IMO.

Re: Mutability of RIDs

On the systems I monitor, the radios themselves always retain the same ID numbers. Portable radios tend to be passed around within any given agency, but are always members of that agency. Mobile and fixed location radios don't change unless vehicles are replaced.

Note that I have no military trunked systems within my monitoring range. My comments apply strictly to civilian government and business systems.

Jay911 said:

"These aliases" I'm referring to that RR doesn't want to see are aliases supplied by the system itself with personal names coming over the control channel linking to a radio ID.

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Radio aliases are not broadcast on control channels.

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