Spring Valley NY PD: Encrypted

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glennoleum

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Hi,

I'm very new to radios and just purchased a Uniden BCD436.

I live in Spring Valley NY and am trying, without success, to listen to the Spring Valley PD. I go to 'Rockland County Public Safety Communication System' and pick the Spring Valley PD. But it is silent. Even when I drive by the PD and get full-bar signal strength, there is only silence.

It has been suggested that perhaps their signal is encrypted. According to the RR database it is not encrypted, but some have suggested the database might be out date.

Does anyone know with certainty whether the Spring Valley PD transmitted with an encrypted signal, or at least is there a way I could find this out myself?

Any other suggestions? Would anyone know other reasons why this might be happening?

Thank you.
 

jvdet

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wrong type of radio
They are digital Phase 2 on the County Trunk System , that radio can not receive phase2
 

GTR8000

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Spring Valley PD is not encrypted. The database is 100% accurate and up-to-date for that system. There is very little encryption in use on the system, and is limited to sensitive tactical talkgroups only.
 

GTR8000

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Incidentally, your proximity to the police station has no bearing on how well you hear them. This is a countywide system that uses 12 radio towers throughout the county, and all talkgroups are simulcast on all towers. What this means is that you will hear any talkgroup anywhere in the county, as the same signals are always transmitted over all 12 towers. You would be able to hear Spring Valley PD in Sloatsburg, in Bear Mountain, in Sparkill, etc. as well as you would standing out on Rt 45 in front of the station.

See this map for the location of the radio towers: RCPSCS Site Map

You are most likely experiencing what is known as "multipath", which can cause distortion due to being within range of multiple radio towers on a simulcast system. Scanners do a poor job deciphering signals when they encounter multipath. Please read the following article for a detailed description of this problem:

Simulcast digital distortion - The RadioReference Wiki

Are you receiving other talkgroups on the system, or do you not hear anything at all?
 
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Alarmguy

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Just use Sentinel to copy the System, and you should receive it fine. You got all the correct info right from the source here RCPSCS.
 

glennoleum

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You are most likely experiencing what is known as "multipath", which can cause distortion due to being within range of multiple radio towers on a simulcast system. Scanners do a poor job deciphering signals when they encounter multipath. Please read the following article for a detailed description of this problem:

Simulcast digital distortion - The RadioReference Wiki

Are you receiving other talkgroups on the system, or do you not hear anything at all?

Sorry for the long delay to respond. We had given up as this seemed to complex, and had returned the scanner. However, we would like to try again. We are not hearing anything at all, so does this mean that the problem is not "multipath"?

In any case, do you have a scanner that *does* pick up Ramapo or Spring Valley PD? Can this be done at all?

Thank you again.
 

GTR8000

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We are not hearing anything at all, so does this mean that the problem is not "multipath"?

It means just the opposite, actually. Not being able to hear anything (assuming the scanner is programmed correctly, which it should be if you're scanning from the full database) means that you're likely in an area that is receiving multiple signals at the same time, causing multi-path issues.

In other words, depending on where in the Valley you are, the scanner could be getting hit with signals from the Monsey site, the Pomona site, and even possibly the Blue Hill and/or Mountainview sites. The system has very good coverage with quite a bit of overlap between sites; which is great for the actual users of the system who are using Motorola radios that handle the multi-path just fine...not so good for scanner users.

Unfortunately I don't really have good news for you. All of the scanner manufacturers have basically ignored the problems with simulcast reception, and instead of coming out with a hardware design that properly demodulates these signals, they play games with software tweaks. Those all amount to smoke and mirrors, as no amount of software tricks are going to recover the lost signals.

Are you primarily trying to listen from a stationary location like home, and if so, can you give me some sense of where you're located? If you don't mind giving me some sort of nearby landmark so that I have a better idea of where you're located in relation to the RF subsites.
 

Septa3371CSX1

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If you have the money or desire invest in a Motorola APX or other P25 Phase 2 commercial radio. They can all be programmed to passively monitor and you'll hear everything loud and clear (so long as it is not encrypted).
 

glennoleum

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Are you primarily trying to listen from a stationary location like home, and if so, can you give me some sense of where you're located? If you don't mind giving me some sort of nearby landmark so that I have a better idea of where you're located in relation to the RF subsites.

Thank you for offering to do the research.

Yes, this is primarily for use at home. We are near the intersection of Viola and Union Roads (at the crossroads of Spring Valley, Monsey and New Hempstead).
 

KevinC

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Let's get back on topic of assisting the OP.
 

Septa3371CSX1

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Wow. It looks like this class of devices is in the $2,000 and up range. Is that what we're talking about in order to make this work?

You can get some used models for $1,000-$1,500 and some are below that. As long as the radio works and is programmed properly you'll hear everything loud and clear.
 

GTR8000

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You can get some used models for $1,000-$1,500 and some are below that. As long as the radio works and is programmed properly you'll hear everything loud and clear.

Sure, $1000, maybe, and if you're lucky it already has the TDMA flash option. Oh but then you've got to obtain the CPS to program it, so add another $300 because naturally you want to do the right thing and obtain it legitimately, right? Hmm but then you'll need the system key to program a trunked system, so aside from nefarious means, how do you propose that the average person acquires that?


glennoleum, sorry, but you're in an area that is getting hit with the signal from multiple sites at the same time, so there is no easy answer for you to receive this system with a consumer grade scanner. It's a genuine shame that the two major manufacturers of these scanners have chosen to turn their backs on their customers by failing to redesign their products so they receive these types of simulcast systems properly.

Another option to keep in mind might eventually be a Unication G4 700/800 MHz pager. Note that at this time they do not support P25 Phase II TDMA, so until and unless they write firmware to support that, the device will not receive the Rockland system. Unication has stated that they hope to have TDMA supported at some point this year.

Last I checked, the G4 runs around $650 dollars, but the performance on simulcast systems is excellent.
 

eashamk16

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Hello! I am in the same area, off 306 a little way down from Viola. My son is physically disabled, and desperately wants a scanner so he can listen to the cops and firemen. It used to give him so much joy when the signal was analog. We already learned the hard way that the Whistler WS 1040 didn't work in our area. I was excited to see the Pro 668 was Phase II compatible. But from what I'm reading here, it seems like nothing will work? Is this true? Is there any scanner in the $300-$400 range that will work in Rockland County? Has anyone had any success? Thanks! This is my first post so please forgive me if I've violated any posting rules!
 

GTR8000

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Unfortunately, there's no easy or definitive answer.

The fundamental truth is that these scanners (regardless of brand) were never designed to properly receive these types of simulcast signals.

For those unfamiliar, a "simulcast" (simultaneous broadcast) simply means that there are multiple radio tower sites within an area that are all broadcasting the same signal on the same channels at the same time. For the users of the system, these simulcasts are great because they provide seamless coverage throughout the entire area; in this case, the entire county. It's not much different from how cell phones operate, and if anyone is familiar with the old Nextel push-to-talk network, that's basically what a trunked system is. Radios on the Rockland system can seamlessly "roam" between the 12 sites throughout the county and enjoy full coverage no matter where they are. Gone are the days where a Spring Valley cop had to be within a certain radius of the village for them to be able to communicate with 711.

So while it's good news for the users of the system in that the radios they use are designed from the start to work just fine with a simulcast, that isn't the case with scanners. Without getting into a whole technical discussion, what it essentially boils down to is that scanners use a very basic method of processing radio signals, which is not well suited for decoding simulcast signals.

Okay so why do some people report that their scanners work just fine, while others can't receive anything? A lot of it has to do with location and other factors that determine how much, or how little, signal from these 12 sites is reaching a particular scanner at any given time. With any simulcast system, there are going to be many areas where the signals from the different sites overlap each other, and this phenomenon is largely what gives the scanners so much trouble.

If you happen to be lucky enough to live very close to one of the simulcast sites, you may not have any issues at all receiving the system, because the scanner will only "hear" that one site. Because the scanner is not receiving a signal from the other sites, it has a much less hard time decoding the system. So for example, if you lived in the heart of Monsey right near the site at the Grove Street water tank, any Phase II scanner would probably work just fine in your house.

Obviously not everyone is that fortunate! For you guys in the 306/Viola Rd/Union Rd area, you're in range of at least two, possibly three, different sites. That is why the scanner is having a hard time making sense of the signal, even though the scanner's display probably shows a very strong signal. It's very frustrating, and probably doesn't make a whole lot of sense that you'd have trouble when the signal is so strong. You'd expect to have issues with a weak signal, naturally, but not the opposite.

The old saying "less is more" applies here. So we've already determined that if the scanner picks up too many of these simulcast sites at the same time, it's going to get "confused" and will just sit there doing nothing, even if it has full bars of signal strength. Obviously packing up the family and moving to a house right next to a site is not an option, so what you want to do is try to lessen the signal that gets to the scanner.

Some things to try are to enable attenuation on the scanner, which is a way to decrease the amount of signal the scanner gets hit with. Most scanners have a way to turn attenuation on, and the exact procedure varies from scanner to scanner. This may help and is an easy thing to try.

There are also some software tweaks for each scanner that might be worth trying, such as adjusting various decode settings. Some scanners have settings like "P25 Threshold" or " P25 Adjustment Mode". Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't, and there is no "one size fits all" because of the many variables involved.

Most of these settings are well beyond the scope of this thread, and detailed questions about specific scanner models should be asked in the appropriate section of the forum, not here.

You can also take a look at the Easier to Read scanner manuals at the following website for more info on your particular scanner model.

Mark's Scanners - Easier to Read Manuals
 

eashamk16

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Thank you so, so much for your incredibly detailed and thoughtful answer. I have one last question. I live in Victoria Gardens, which is 5 minutes NE of the Grove Street water tank. Is that close enough that I might have some success?
 

GTR8000

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The Blueberry Hill/Victoria Gardens area would get hit with a pretty decent signal from the Cheesecote site in Pomona also, so I can't say for sure that you'd have a clear signal from just the Grove St site.

My advice would be to purchase the scanner from a reputable place that has a no-hassle return policy, in case it doesn't work for you.
 
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