What about LE encryption in GA

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gwbaker

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So I have not been into scanning in about 16 years. I just got interested again and I am looking at the TRX-1 from Whistler.

What concerns me is all the talk of law enforcement agencies going encrypted. But, the ones I hear complaining the most are in areas like Los Angeles where there are a lot more people and the government seems to fear the people in this and similar minded areas.

How about here in GA? I read where Glynn County is encrypted, but that could be for purposes of privacy from the FBI academy in town. Who knows...

I live in Dallas, and work in Cobb for a non-encrypted agency.
 

N8IAA

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So I have not been into scanning in about 16 years. I just got interested again and I am looking at the TRX-1 from Whistler.

What concerns me is all the talk of law enforcement agencies going encrypted. But, the ones I hear complaining the most are in areas like Los Angeles where there are a lot more people and the government seems to fear the people in this and similar minded areas.

How about here in GA? I read where Glynn County is encrypted, but that could be for purposes of privacy from the FBI academy in town. Who knows...

I live in Dallas, and work in Cobb for a non-encrypted agency.

Gwinnett is fully encrypted. Hall county SO and PD's are encrypted, but, they do have Event TG's that they can interop with Forsyth county and Hall. It depends on how open they want to be.
The TRX-1 will be good with DMR, and soon to have NXDN.
Larry
 

RRR

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Unfortunately, you can pretty much count on a majority of the new and reprogrammed DMR (Mototrbo) systems (business and public safety) to be encrypted in large numbers in the near future, not just due to the publicity of the newer scanners that will monitor them, but mainly because of the upcoming folks that will broadcast them all over the world. (End users do not want this. *End users do not want this!*) Anyway, this is fact, as radio tecs I know have been watching this unfold closely, and this has been much discussed in the radio circles here in Georgia. Remember, Mototrbo was marketed to the end users as offering "private" communications, IE; can not be monitored on a scanner. Now with a DMR capable scanner, it is no longer "Private" as advertised, so the salesmen that marketed it to the end user as such, will now hear their frustration, thus most likely when the firmware is updated in the radios, the ENC box will be checked, an encryption code will be entered, and the repeaters will be updated to pass the ENC code(s), rendering the system unable to be monitored on a DMR scanner.

For the record, this was a posting that was specifically regarding encryption in Georgia, hopefully I won't be publically spanked for responding to it such...
 

MTS2000des

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Unfortunately, you can pretty much count on a majority of the new and reprogrammed DMR (Mototrbo) systems (business and public safety) to be encrypted in large numbers in the near future, not just due to the publicity of the newer scanners that will monitor them, but mainly because of the upcoming folks that will broadcast them all over the world. (End users do not want this. *End users do not want this!*) Anyway, this is fact, as radio tecs I know have been watching this unfold closely, and this has been much discussed in the radio circles here in Georgia. Remember, Mototrbo was marketed to the end users as offering "private" communications, IE; can not be monitored on a scanner. Now with a DMR capable scanner, it is no longer "Private" as advertised, so the salesmen that marketed it to the end user as such, will now hear their frustration, thus most likely when the firmware is updated in the radios, the ENC box will be checked, an encryption code will be entered, and the repeaters will be updated to pass the ENC code(s), rendering the system unable to be monitored on a DMR scanner.

For the record, this was a posting that was specifically regarding encryption in Georgia, hopefully I won't be publically spanked for responding to it such...

Everything you have said is 100 percent correct. That is all I will say.
 

gwbaker

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Unfortunately, you can pretty much count on a majority of the new and reprogrammed DMR (Mototrbo) systems (business and public safety) to be encrypted in large numbers in the near future, not just due to the publicity of the newer scanners that will monitor them, but mainly because of the upcoming folks that will broadcast them all over the world. (End users do not want this. *End users do not want this!*) Anyway, this is fact, as radio tecs I know have been watching this unfold closely, and this has been much discussed in the radio circles here in Georgia. Remember, Mototrbo was marketed to the end users as offering "private" communications, IE; can not be monitored on a scanner. Now with a DMR capable scanner, it is no longer "Private" as advertised, so the salesmen that marketed it to the end user as such, will now hear their frustration, thus most likely when the firmware is updated in the radios, the ENC box will be checked, an encryption code will be entered, and the repeaters will be updated to pass the ENC code(s), rendering the system unable to be monitored on a DMR scanner.

For the record, this was a posting that was specifically regarding encryption in Georgia, hopefully I won't be publically spanked for responding to it such...

I was pondering whether or not the availability of the phone scan apps and the feeds available here would help lead the way to encryption. I believe you are right on that aspect. Too bad this is ruining such a great hobby!
 

AggieCon

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Blaming streaming is the cheap way out. The problem is not steaming; the problem is government agencies with officials that prefer control and concealment rather than transparency and accountability. That's the real problem. People like to complain online, but who actually takes action to correct these inappropriate policies? When was the last time you went to and spoke up at a public meeting? How often have you corresponded with elected officials and agency leadership about this? Even before DMR scanning, agencies on those systems should have been providing steams of their traffic.

Regarding DMR being sold as "private," it appears that the people spending taxpayer money are quite naive and uninformed. For that and for crying about transparency, they should be replaced, unless they want to see the light and change their practices.

Don't blame streaming, that's just an easy cover for them rather than admitting the truth: "We say things on the radio that would cause others to question the professionalism, competence, and legitimacy of our agency, and we want to avoid as much oversight as possible."
 

bkspear

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AggieCon and the rest that feel encryption is occurring due to control and concealment by the government,
What about the fact that criminals can use a scanner or app on their phone to evade law enforcement? What about officer safety? You think maybe that's a factor?
 

AggieCon

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What about the fact that criminals can use a scanner or app on their phone to evade law enforcement? What about officer safety? You think maybe that's a factor?

No. It's not a factor. Some might use those "reasons" as cover too (along with streaming), but there's no real evidence to support such fearful reactions. The current means of encryption practiced by most agencies are not secure enough to provide any reasonable increase in communications security for sensitive operations that might actually benefit from concealed communications. However, turning on encryption, no matter how weak, immediately makes it illegal for law abiding individuals to monitor.

If a thug is listening to the radio traffic, there are all sorts of ways to use that to your advantage. Frankly, I doubt that's a frequent occurrence.

In general, things are framed officer vs. civilians way too often. An officer has no greater expectation for safety than me or anyone else. Indeed, by volunteering for a job with known risks, the expectation for safety is even less. Unfortunately, the state continues to remove self-defense technology from the public while the state agents are lowering their threshold of risk, leaving people out to, well, die. The safety and right to know of the public far outweighs the fear-mongering and, yes, even safety of government agents.

Then again, anyone who doesn't think we have a police state in many areas isn't going to get it. I understand that most do not understand liberty, personal responsibility, and other values on which our once great country was founded upon.
 

gwbaker

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AggieCon and the rest that feel encryption is occurring due to control and concealment by the government,
What about the fact that criminals can use a scanner or app on their phone to evade law enforcement? What about officer safety? You think maybe that's a factor?

I am an LEO of 24 years. I agree with that the radios should remain unencrypted for the main reason of citizen oversight of the government. The safety issues, while a valid concern, do not occur anywhere near often enough to justify encryption. For too long the Feds all the way down to the municipality have sold the public on the fact that they (and me until I retire) need this to keep you safe. Fear is only a mechanism of control.

S.W.A.T., the presidential SS detail, any tactical need channel, sure go with encryption But every day dispatch.... Nope, IMHO.

But, that is just my 2 cents.
 

AggieCon

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S.W.A.T., the presidential SS detail, any tactical need channel, sure go with encryption

Yes, and ideally with a key that isn't programmed into hundreds of radios... Or on a trunked system for that matter. It's a joke that some agencies are not maintaining simplex frequencies for tactical work.

I think a lot of encrypted agencies do not realize that they are doing it in a way that does not provide communication security.

The average thug is not in the right mind to be monitoring police traffic, and the sophisticated thug can figure out how to beat encryption with only little effort how it is implemented in most local agencies.
 

coolderb

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I am an LEO of 24 years. I agree with that the radios should remain unencrypted for the main reason of citizen oversight of the government. The safety issues, while a valid concern, do not occur anywhere near often enough to justify encryption. For too long the Feds all the way down to the municipality have sold the public on the fact that they (and me until I retire) need this to keep you safe. Fear is only a mechanism of control.

S.W.A.T., the presidential SS detail, any tactical need channel, sure go with encryption But every day dispatch.... Nope, IMHO.

But, that is just my 2 cents.

Not only that but also for public safety and awareness. Just yesterday I heard a call from the State Police issuing a BOLO for an individual driving a truck (make, model and year also provided). That individual was wanted for murder. The general public should not be kept in the dark about such situations and could provide law enforcement with valuable, potentially life-saving information if they were to spot such a dangerous individual. BTW, that same information was not posted on the State Police social media page nor did I receive any text alerts about it.
 

RRR

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The radio end users do not want their local transmissions rebroadcast all over the world, simple as that.

You can try to claim it is for secrecy, etc., and maybe sometimes it is, ok. But the news media has absolutely abused this so many times, that I can't blame an agency wanting to encrypt their traffic now, so it won't be picked up by some nosey, exaggerating, or plain lying "journalist" from far away, just to use against them in some sensational story.

Lets not forget about the average thug with a smart phone, using it for their personal gain nowadays....

When it was just us "scanner folks" listening in, nobody really cared. But when an agency head finds out their traffic is being "streamed" over the internet, their reaction is very rarely positive.

Agree or disagree, this is the way it is. I am "in the know" and I see and hear this on a regular basis.
 

gwbaker

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The radio end users do not want their local transmissions rebroadcast all over the world, simple as that.

You can try to claim it is for secrecy, etc., and maybe sometimes it is, ok. But the news media has absolutely abused this so many times, that I can't blame an agency wanting to encrypt their traffic now, so it won't be picked up by some nosey, exaggerating, or plain lying "journalist" from far away, just to use against them in some sensational story.

Lets not forget about the average thug with a smart phone, using it for their personal gain nowadays....

When it was just us "scanner folks" listening in, nobody really cared. But when an agency head finds out their traffic is being "streamed" over the internet, their reaction is very rarely positive.

Agree or disagree, this is the way it is. I am "in the know" and I see and hear this on a regular basis.

While you make very good points, someone listening to law enforcement radios in today's environment is nothing compared to the proliferation of video cameras everywhere you turn (cell phones). I personally do not think that listening to their radios is the biggest concern. It is the fact that big brother is now being watched just as fervently as "little brother."
 

SCPD

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I just love it when people say "they have the right to know" or "the right to listen to public safety comms". There is no right for either one. Encryption sucks, what can you do about it?. The best thing is to contact the Police or, Fire chief, city council, mayor, etc and voice your concern. This has been used in the past which actually worked with the encryption turned off. I am not blaming streaming or cell phone apps, some agencies don't give a crap and encrypt everything because they can but streaming does not help the cause. Also the people who say "it's my tax dollars, I should be able to listen". I have some advice for those people, don't pay your taxes and then you will want encryption when your name is heard over the scanner after you're arrested for failure to pay taxes!.
 
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AggieCon

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I just love it when people say "they have the right to know" or "the right to listen to public safety comms". There is no right for either one.

Not only do people have the right to know, but they also have a right to listen, even to encrypted traffic. The only difference is they just have to wait at least two weeks to hear the encrypted traffic. Despite attempts by some to conceal government activities, the right to know of government activities and records in the country is still generally maintained.

I do agree with your statement about people actually taking action to do something about encryption.
 

KK4JUG

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Not only do people have the right to know, but they also have a right to listen, even to encrypted traffic. The only difference is they just have to wait at least two weeks to hear the encrypted traffic. Despite attempts by some to conceal government activities, the right to know of government activities and records in the country is still generally maintained.

I do agree with your statement about people actually taking action to do something about encryption.

What part of the Constitution gives anyone the right to listen to police traffic?

Having asked that, I still agree that public safety radio should remain unencrypted but I'm not going to depend on the Constitution for it. Speaking up is the only way.
 

AggieCon

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The 1st and 9th amendments to the Constitution. Additionally, the rights are further laid out in federal and state public information laws. Indeed, many of those public information laws discuss making as much information publicly accessible without the need to request it. Therefore, concealing information that would otherwise be publicly accessible (i.e. encrypting radio traffic) is likely against many of the state laws; perhaps someone will challenge it someday. One day I will motivate myself to more fully explain this position.

Of course, you are right on. It doesn't matter what the Constitution or any other law, for that matter, says. There is no "master" forcing government agencies (or any citizen) to follow laws; only when held accountable will they follow the law. Speaking up and taking action is the only way.
 

MTS2000des

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What part of the Constitution gives anyone the right to listen to police traffic?

It doesn't. This is just a delusional response promulgated by emotions.

As a radio hobbyist, it is nice to be able to listen. I'd love to be able to dust off the old Pro-2010 and hear everything within 100 miles. Time and technology marches on. Digital is here to stay. Encryption is a natural progression of radio technology.

It should be used when appropriate. What's appropriate depends on those who utilize and manage the system for their users, not to benefit scanner hobbyists. I know that hurts, but the truth does pack a punch sometimes.
 
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