Transmitting On Public Safety Frequencies/Repeaters While Performing Work For Governm

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N2AL

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Hey everyone, I have a general question regarding the legalities of transmitting on a non-amateur frequency. I am looking to see if there is an exception to the rules of transmitting on non-amateur frequencies.

I have been monitoring the Tennessee VTNMA & UTNMA frequencies for a period of time now. I have heard in the past, and today as well, an amateur radio operator transmit, performing radio checks on public safety frequencies and repeaters, in conjunction with a county's Emergency Management Agency.

So my question is this: Can amateur radio operator's transmit on non-amateur frequencies, while performing duties for a government agency, such as radio checks, or emergency communications? I am curious of what the rules actually say, for my own information. We never stop learning, and this is a learning point for me.

I know Part 97 - Subpart E-Providing Emergency Communications - §97.407 Radio amateur civil emergency service , states information concerning RACES and other emergency communications, but I am not sure if it applies to non-amateur portions of band spectrums.



Andrew | N2AL
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Thunderknight

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The short answer is no. But of course it's actually more complicated than that :)

RACES applies only to amateur frequencies.
The operator's ham license and call sign applies only to the ham bands.
A part 90 (public safety) licensee can authorize people they need to communicate with to use their frequencies to do so. However, this is under the agency's part 90 license and has nothing to do with the ham license or even if they are a ham. And It must be directly related to the agencies need.
Anyone using part 90 (pub safety) frequencies must be using part 90 type accepted transmitters (not modified ham transmitters).
There is *much* debate about use in life safety emergencies, but that doesn't seem to apply in the case you describe.

Edit: regarding their radio call sign, the ham call sign gives no authority outside of part 97 (ham). I'm not sure if using it as an agency radio identifier on part 90 is prohibited or not (eg is it any different than "OES Car 7"). The part 90 license still needs to ID and keep a record of mobile units etc.
 
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KK4JUG

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EMA's use hams for many purposes. They're familiar with radio operations and are often used during emergencies, especially catastrophic events.

The Georgia Emergency Management Agency (GEMA) usually includes them in practice exercises to work alongside public safety personnel.
 

N2AL

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The short answer is no. But of course it's actually more complicated than that :)

RACES applies only to amateur frequencies.
The operator's ham license and call sign applies only to the ham bands.
A part 90 (public safety) licensee can authorize people they need to communicate with to use their frequencies to do so. However, this is under the agency's part 90 license and has nothing to do with the ham license or even if they are a ham. And It must be directly related to the agencies need.
Anyone using part 90 (pub safety) frequencies must be using part 90 type accepted transmitters (not modified ham transmitters).
There is *much* debate about use in life safety emergencies, but that doesn't seem to apply in the case you describe.



Thanks for the reply Thunderknight. I understand what you stated about Part 90 and it makes sense. The only question I could see is with it being a mutual aid frequency/repeater, is if they actually had control over the system. But if they were given permission by a government agency, you would think they would have an agency call sign or identification number. I would not think a ham radio call sign would be needed.

Thanks for your knowledge and input!



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SCPD

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If he has authorization from the allied agency and is using type accepted equipment , then 100% legal. Here authorized hams are given a radio id that fits into the county scheme rather than using their ham callsign however.
 

N2AL

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If he has authorization from the allied agency and is using type accepted equipment , then 100% legal. Here authorized hams are given a radio id that fits into the county scheme rather than using their ham callsign however.



Thanks for the information. That is the same with us. Even though we have ham operators, we have specific ID numbers for use while working.



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nd5y

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n5ims

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Since an agency can issue their user's identity (or call sign) as they wish it is possible that the emergency communications agency in question has given them system identifiers that just happen to be identical to their ham call signs to make it easier for them to remember, especially if their tasks have them relay between their ham communications and their system communications. Legally their call signs would be their legal call sign on the ham radios and their agency assigned identifier on the public service radios even though what is said is identical on both.
 

Project25_MASTR

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Another thing you see it with is radio techs (like the ones that work at radio shops) performing occasional (scheduled) radio checks for the agency who just so happen to be hams and use that call (which is different from issued calls) so dispatch knows it is just the tech checking in.

Texas DPS has a call list for RACES by county using DPS calls. Ideally it's for someone having to perform a net/dispatch relay…but doesn't mean the RACES members in the area actually know what it is.
 

902

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Retired public safety radio system manager (amongst other duties) here. Just want to share my line of thinking...

Be careful.

From the Sheriff's standpoint, if he wanted someone on his system, he'd issue them a radio. Period.

We had numerous problems with various groups and people using personally-owned equipment. Many of them were low tier products when they came out, and were approaching the end of their useful life. Most were way out of alignment or very intermittent, but because they were personally owned, they were the owners' babies. "My Wilson can't possibly be bad, but it can't get into your Quantar repeater (that seems to be reliable for everyone else)."

So, with only a very few exceptions, the primary channel was absolutely off limits.

A secondary channel "could" be issued - with the following proviso:
1) A time-out timer set to 60.
2) Radio must be registered and approved with the system manager (me). I recorded the serial number and the agency/person/purpose.
3) Radio must be capable of MDC1200 and reverse burst.
4) MDC1200 must be programmed to activate at end of transmission and to the ID the system manager assigned you. That ID was then programmed into the console so the dispatcher could see who was transmitting. Unrecorded or self-assigned IDs were first sent a "kill" message (usually didn't work) and then reported to the system manager.
5) Absolutely no hammie radios allowed.

You know what they say: there's a name behind every procedure. A handful of knuckleheads made all of that necessary. In some cases, we issued compatible radios and then destroyed the non-compliant ones because we did not want them to surface at some future point.

And, yes, I can remember a radio or two being taken by a deputy. Anyone who wanted to play Philadelphia lawyer could go see the county's attorney (a real one) to get their radio back.

Interoperability channels were sandboxes where anyone who could be there could be there. Can't meet the requirements, but still need to communicate directly? Use one of the IO channels. Every radio had them, and VCALL was programmed in scan.

But that was just us. All of that has been replaced with 800 trunked.

Maybe the short answer is: your discussion needs to take place with whomever's system you intend to pop up on, and should have all of the "Who, what, where, when, how, and why" addressed, along with "for how long?", not on a hobbyist board. Then get it in writing in a signed MOU. No one likes surprises.

Good luck and don't get in trouble.
 

AK9R

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I am looking to see if there is an exception to the rules of transmitting on non-amateur frequencies.
If there were any exceptions, they'd be in the rules for those other radio services. As has been stated, don't go looking in Part 97 to find what might be permitted or not permitted in other radio services such as Part 90.

Can amateur radio operator's transmit on non-amateur frequencies, while performing duties for a government agency, such as radio checks, or emergency communications?
Only when specifically authorized by the licensee and only with equipment certified for the radio service in question.
 

N2AL

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Retired public safety radio system manager (amongst other duties) here. Just want to share my line of thinking...

Be careful.

From the Sheriff's standpoint, if he wanted someone on his system, he'd issue them a radio. Period.

We had numerous problems with various groups and people using personally-owned equipment. Many of them were low tier products when they came out, and were approaching the end of their useful life. Most were way out of alignment or very intermittent, but because they were personally owned, they were the owners' babies. "My Wilson can't possibly be bad, but it can't get into your Quantar repeater (that seems to be reliable for everyone else)."

So, with only a very few exceptions, the primary channel was absolutely off limits.

A secondary channel "could" be issued - with the following proviso:
1) A time-out timer set to 60.
2) Radio must be registered and approved with the system manager (me). I recorded the serial number and the agency/person/purpose.
3) Radio must be capable of MDC1200 and reverse burst.
4) MDC1200 must be programmed to activate at end of transmission and to the ID the system manager assigned you. That ID was then programmed into the console so the dispatcher could see who was transmitting. Unrecorded or self-assigned IDs were first sent a "kill" message (usually didn't work) and then reported to the system manager.
5) Absolutely no hammie radios allowed.

You know what they say: there's a name behind every procedure. A handful of knuckleheads made all of that necessary. In some cases, we issued compatible radios and then destroyed the non-compliant ones because we did not want them to surface at some future point.

And, yes, I can remember a radio or two being taken by a deputy. Anyone who wanted to play Philadelphia lawyer could go see the county's attorney (a real one) to get their radio back.

Interoperability channels were sandboxes where anyone who could be there could be there. Can't meet the requirements, but still need to communicate directly? Use one of the IO channels. Every radio had them, and VCALL was programmed in scan.

But that was just us. All of that has been replaced with 800 trunked.

Maybe the short answer is: your discussion needs to take place with whomever's system you intend to pop up on, and should have all of the "Who, what, where, when, how, and why" addressed, along with "for how long?", not on a hobbyist board. Then get it in writing in a signed MOU. No one likes surprises.

Good luck and don't get in trouble.

I am quite confused at your post. I do not know how you interpreted my post, but it was wrong. My intentions are not to transmit on public safety frequencies as a ham. I use public safety channels enough already while working everyday in my career field. I was inquiring due to hearing traffic on a mutual aid channel that identified with a ham call sign. But thanks for the sidebar though.
 

N2AL

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If there were any exceptions, they'd be in the rules for those other radio services. As has been stated, don't go looking in Part 97 to find what might be permitted or not permitted in other radio services such as Part 90.


Only when specifically authorized by the licensee and only with equipment certified for the radio service in question.

Thanks W9BU for the information, short, sweet, and spot on.
 

WA0CBW

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As was pointed out above if the radio is not part 90 certified it cannot be used on public safety frequencies (or commercial frequencies either). Just because a radio can be programmed with the frequencies doesn't mean it is legal to use them on those frequencies.
BB
 

KK4JUG

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Perhaps they were using the hams' call signs to differentiate between the different hams participating in whatever they were doing. Rather than "Unit 2" or whatever, they would use the call sign.
 

SCPD

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If there were any exceptions, they'd be in the rules for those other radio services. As has been stated, don't go looking in Part 97 to find what might be permitted or not permitted in other radio services such as Part 90.


Only when specifically authorized by the licensee and only with equipment certified for the radio service in question.

Pretty much agree with the right posts along side proper equipment authorized and following legal authorization of the system administrator, manager, agency, etc like a chain of command and custody with all involved having signed away. I do know smaller counties tend to have the head oem as the signee when licensing if he is qualified and part of his duties as the oem for that said county. When it comes to a trs you definitely want the system admin and management to issue equipment that will be used on a trs and go through them regardless what a agrncy sheriff or chief says. Even if a oem says go ahead you still want the trs admin and proper channels to be the caller on those. Conventional we have 3 small counties who the head oem is in charge of the county licensing which they have the proper credentials along with oem duties to sign for and makes decisions with those conventional systems however they follow the rules to a T specially when dealing with one agencies trs which is not controlled by them. Issuing equipment or any said equipment that will be used in such manner you say is dedicated for that not a ham rig. Now does opposites occur I am sure somewhere they do and a oem or agency license holder who manages it says test it with our equipment. I'm sure it happens and probably going un noticed. The penalties if caught could be severe but we know how that goes either way. Better safe then sorry. Any radio that touches the 4 counties conventional systems and 1 trs go through the named administrator and license holder along with the agency itself heads. The trs is one that is more touchy and like mentioned planned ahead of time through the system admin and designated contacts who always issue equipment never allowing anything on it without them touching it first. 99 percent of the time a agency radio or equivalent to what is used is issued with ids and codeplug locked with the equipment certified by the contracted shop or local shop techs. While many small areas go around this and the legal proper ways the majority won't chance it. Are we sure it isn't a actual agency call sign being Transmitted rather then a ham call sign? Also as mentioned unknown communications or ids are logged and reported/recorded and if possible stunned. I imagine whatever it is the proper procedure and route was taken hopefully.
 

ecps92

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If he/she is Officially (Employed/Volunteer) acting on behalf of the Agency, likely YES.

I say likely Yes due to other unknown answers to many questions.
a. IS he/she using Amateur equipment ? Then NO
b. Just like a PO/FF/DPW Worker, of course - they are issued the radio as a tool of the Job. IS this person issued a radio ? Did they purchase it to use it on Part 90 channels with Permission ? Then Yes they would use the FCC Callsign of the Agency or the Tactical Call/Radio ID assigned by the Agency, generally it will not be the Amateur Call Sign

IT would be just like Staffing an EOC and covering/handling not only the Amatuer Frequencies, but also working the other frequencies available to the EOC.

Hey everyone, I have a general question regarding the legalities of transmitting on a non-amateur frequency. I am looking to see if there is an exception to the rules of transmitting on non-amateur frequencies.

I have been monitoring the Tennessee VTNMA & UTNMA frequencies for a period of time now. I have heard in the past, and today as well, an amateur radio operator transmit, performing radio checks on public safety frequencies and repeaters, in conjunction with a county's Emergency Management Agency.

So my question is this: Can amateur radio operator's transmit on non-amateur frequencies, while performing duties for a government agency, such as radio checks, or emergency communications? I am curious of what the rules actually say, for my own information. We never stop learning, and this is a learning point for me.

I know Part 97 - Subpart E-Providing Emergency Communications - §97.407 Radio amateur civil emergency service , states information concerning RACES and other emergency communications, but I am not sure if it applies to non-amateur portions of band spectrums.



Andrew | N2AL
N2AL | Amateur Extra Class Operator – November Two Alpha Lima
 
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DaveNF2G

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Probably a good time to lock the thread. The original question has been answered clearly and correctly, and the discussion has not gone off the rails yet.

:)
 

w8prr

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Might I post one more comment, not really useful but a little funny. I'm retired from the Communications Center in the county south of where I live. To keep in the system a little I'm part time employed by the county I live in for some communications projects and other things. I need to use a radio once in a while, and instead of assigning me a call in the usual pattern they call me G-100, why? They say I'm and old man and geezer 100 best fits me! everyone has to have a little fun!
 
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