Public Safety Network - Proprietary Features

MotorolaResearcher · Jul 14, 2016

Hi,

I am new to learning about commercial radio systems and have been researching public safety networks. I read a few articles that Motorola and some of the other large equipment manufacturers are able to secure a large market share by putting "proprietary features" into their networks which limits the interoperability between systems.

Will any one of you guys help me figure out if Moto handsets can be used on other networks (Harris, Kenwood etc.) and vice versa? Any other general background you can provide on how long this has been the case and whether any policy changes will likely change this will also be very helpful.

Thanks

wsykes41770 · Jul 15, 2016

For the most part, yes. The proprietary features are things like encryption methods, methods of securing the codeplug/template of the radio, etc.... We run a Motorola M-core 17.14 P25 system and have users with Kenwood, Harris, Tait and EF Johnson radios. There may even be a couple of Vertex Standards out there as well, but I'm not 100% sure they haven't been replaced with something else.

The things we have seen when putting these other radios brands on our system have ranged from serial numbers being too long to enter into the Provisioning Manager to not being able to use an encrypted talkgroup because of Motorola's proprietary ADP encryption. Most of the time things can be worked around.

mmckenna · Jul 15, 2016

If you are looking at P25 systems, then you should consider looking at the full APCO P25 standard.

If a radio system follows the full P25 standard (P25 compliant), then any P25 radio that meets the standard should be able to work on it without issue (given that frequency, programming, etc. is done correctly).

Where the issue happens is when a company takes the P25 standard and starts adding stuff to it. The radio system is still P25 compliant, but the additional functions can make it difficult to impossible for other vendors to work on the system.

The problem is the additional features, like ADP encryption. Radio system managers could force users to not use these proprietary features to make the system useable by other brand radios, but it doesn't always happen. Motorola gives ADP encryption away for free, in hopes that agencies will use it, rather than using the additional cost encryption methods. Once ADP, or other proprietary features are used, then we have an issue.

Again, all this is considered OK because the underlying system is still P25 compliant, but the additional features are not interoperable with other brands.

All a trick to get hands into the taxpayers pockets. Locking in one vendor allows the vendor to control the purchasing contracts legally. I personally believe it's unethical, but ethics don't seem to play a part into decisions as much as they used to.

N4DES · Jul 15, 2016

ADP, while not a P25 standard, is also available in newer EF Johnson and BK/Relm radios.
EFJ supposedly did a license agreement with Motorola and BK/Relm reverse engineered it.

Also Motorola doesn't own the RC4 encryption that they renamed ADP. It is a 3rd party application and Motorola does not own the rights to it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RC4

greenthumb · Jul 15, 2016

Keep in mind that the P25 standards only talk about how to make certain functionality work across vendors. If you look at the P25 headers in the standards, there is plenty of leeway to allow for vendor specific features. So you can have a P25 compliant system (which is a vague term since the standards are a set of features) that has proprietary features. But the basic functionality (voice calls, emergency button, unit ID, etc.) will work between different vendor radios and systems generally well these days. Check SDoC and STR documents on FEMA's web site before buying.

ADP is a problem, but the use of it only serves to shoot the agency using it in the foot when it comes to pricing. Definitely a self-inflicted problem.

MTS2000des · Jul 15, 2016

greenthumb said:
ADP is a problem,

How so? From a crypto standpoint it's a weak cipher.

EF Johnson's Viking VP600/900 have RC4 which works perfectly with ADP. I've demo'ed them on my 7.14 system and passed traffic back and forth in coded mode with no loss of functionality. Same with the Relm KNG-P800. Worked fine with my ADP enabled APX and XTS radios.

RC4/ADP is cheap and easy to setup. No KVL needed. While it does not support OTAR on an Astro 25 network, it's more than adequate for many users.

greenthumb said:
the use of it only serves to shoot the agency using it in the foot when it comes to pricing. Definitely a self-inflicted problem.

Huh? Single key ADP is standard on every APX radio, even the basic APX1000.
It's also standard on the EFJ and Relm KNG series. Please explain.

mmckenna · Jul 15, 2016

I think what he's talking about is what I was eluding to above.

Until recently, using ADP on a "P25 compliant" system would lock you into Motorola brand radios only.
Not a good thing, unless of course, you were trying to lock everyone into using Motorola radios. Good for Motorola, but not good for allowing agencies to use lowest qualified bidder on their purchasing.

Now that EF Johnson is doing it, the single vendor issue is gone. Sort of how EF Johnson licensed the SmartNet/SmartZone stuff for their radios, saved a few agencies from getting locked down on purchasing.

I understand what you are saying, but locking bidders out bidding on taxpayer funded projects really doesn't help anyone. As a taxpayer, I certainly don't appreciate it.

greenthumb · Jul 16, 2016

mmckenna said:
I think what he's talking about is what I was eluding to above.

Yep

I understand what you are saying, but locking bidders out bidding on taxpayer funded projects really doesn't help anyone. As a taxpayer, I certainly don't appreciate it.

Spot on with what I'm talking about. It's a "big picture" problem, not one related to the cost of the feature on a single radio. Vendors could offer non-FIPS compliant DES for free too.

N4DES · Jul 16, 2016

mmckenna said:
Now that EF Johnson is doing it, the single vendor issue is gone. Sort of how EF Johnson licensed the SmartNet/SmartZone stuff for their radios, saved a few agencies from getting locked down on purchasing.

Kinda sorta...I know of someone who put a "software encryption" requirement into their P25 radio bid spec and Harris cried fowl and protested even though it is available from multiple vendors. I didn't get the outcome so I would assume it is still in the protesting stage in their Purchasing Dept.

Public Safety Network - Proprietary Features

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