Active Repeater with Expired license?!?

This one is strange... I was sitting here with my PRO-651 on Signal Stalker when it stopped on 453.8375, I thought it would be another DMR Frequency, NOPE! it was St. Vincent's Hospital (Pretty close to me so I thought that had to be it) I looked under Jefferson County and went to FCC Licenses to be surprised that there was no 453.8375 in the list, I went up to the top and selected Expired Licenses and it turns out, it is Saint Vincents Hospital, it had the following callsigns: WPUP467 (Expired 10/08/2002), WPWA901 (Expired 10/01/2012) and KRI598 (Expired 10/25/2014). The Info is Out: 453.8375 (In: 458.8375), DCS: 155. It says in the application it is for "Emergency activities and Patient Transportation" And yes I am hearing things like "You've got a pick-up west side" so they are very much still using it for patient transportation. Is this illegal? How would the FCC Treat this? St. Vincents does have other licenses for other frequencies that are active but this Repeater is still active with no license.

Almost certainly it will be treated as a typical large business accidental expiration. Happens in the UK too, and usually when the email contact our OFCOM have with the license holder suddenly fails because the person in post leaves or gets promoted and gets a new email. The renewal bounces, and then the license expires. Happens a lot. Unless the frequency has been re-assigned and is no longer available, our Government just expect them to pay up, and the license is updated - I cab't see the US being different. Accidental and difficult to solve - so why worry that much?

paulears said:

Accidental and difficult to solve - so why worry that much?

Click to expand...

well, I am so close to Saint Vincents that the other repeater I mentioned interferes with all the other UHF frequencies on my scanners, the repeater uses 200 watts this repeater however shows 100 watts on its latest license and it shows different locations, I just hope it dosn't bother my stuff either

I suspect that a 100W repeater will annoy a wideband receiver with poorer filtering - but as a listener, we have to put up with it, don't we?

marksroberson said:

well, I am so close to Saint Vincents that the other repeater I mentioned interferes with all the other UHF frequencies on my scanners, the repeater uses 200 watts this repeater however shows 100 watts on its latest license and it shows different locations, I just hope it dosn't bother my stuff either

Click to expand...

So, go over to the hospital and find whoever is in charge of the radio system. Let the person in charge know they are in violation due to an expired license, and the fact they moved the equipment and failed to correct the license which is another separate violation.

We find that the "radio shop" was supposed to take care of these things and did NOT do their job. And the poor hospital administrator does not even realize there IS a problem.

Are you guys serious? At my hospital you can't even find out who is in charge of patients because they are so busy - they're saving people's lives.

Is there any remote need on the scale of importance to set up as a private license police? I'm all in favour of going after illegal use of radio systems, but expired licenses in a genuine service, using it for genuine need?

Do you really think that a member of the public would even be able to get to the person? Nobody on reception will have a clue about any of the back office stuff. The hospital administrator has no interest in licenses - that's a delegated job.

Let's be honest here - this is a job for the countries administration, double checking licenses that have expired really are and are not mistakes. Leave it to them, and forget it.

If somebody knocked on my door and told me of an expired license of mine, that would be helpful, but also make me wonder why exactly somebody was checking me out? Handy info, but I would be wondering?

You could contact the FCC, explain you were listening in and noticed that an expired frequency was still being used, and let them sort it? Far better than becoming an unpaid Government employee!

paulears said:

Do you really think that a member of the public would even be able to get to the person? Nobody on reception will have a clue about any of the back office stuff. The hospital administrator has no interest in licenses - that's a delegated job.

Click to expand...

I haven't seen a hospital here in the states that I couldn't go right in and talk to someone in administration for a variety of things. With the exception of the Veteran's Administration, it shouldn't be a problem (I've never had to with them). Hospital Administrator, CEO, CFO, department heads, etcetera... No problems.

Man I hope you don't have a heart attack! What if you caused the hospitals system to get shut down, "highly doubtful", hypothetically saying and you needed assistance ASAP? Then would you be mad because they didn't respond? I would just let this one be IMO, as you could see why it would be a bad deal if their comms got shut down over something as minor as an expired license. Just some food for thought.
And like said, the doctors and nurses most likely don't have a clue what the heck you are speaking of!! Better to leave bygones be bygones IMO. If it were a dumb business like landscaping or something then I could see your point. But you are speaking about a place that saves people's lives. Which I think takes precedence over an expired license. JMHO's. Good day.


I'm just a CB'er, what do I know???

Well - in a UK hospital you n' even get an old person an appointment to have ear wax removed so they can hear. In my very big local hospital, there is nowhere to even go that isn't medical oriented - no customer reception just the clinics. I have no idea how I would get to talk to anybody in admin, and I doubt any of the nurses would be interested.

Anyway - it seems a lot of effort to get labelled as a trouble maker?

IT is a Common occurance. :roll:
There are a few threads on this, with folks attempting to find active licenses and no luck

Depending on who (Person) and/or Section in the Contact fields the renewal notices get circular filed (Trash) as the Attention field is
a. Someone Retired
b. No Longer the Contracted Vendor
c. fill in the blank

Not making excuses, but it does occur.
There are 2 Hospital email address's in the license, send them an email indicating what you found, and mention the lapse... There are also phone #'s listed...

You will be surprised at how fast the can act.
I even had a local PD who lapsed and 2 Days later a Private Company was appling for the Frequency. Called the Sgt I knew, turns out the paper work went under the Retired Sgts name and someone filed it. They renewed and the Private Company was Denied

marksroberson said:

This one is strange... I was sitting here with my PRO-651 on Signal Stalker when it stopped on 453.8375, I thought it would be another DMR Frequency, NOPE! it was St. Vincent's Hospital (Pretty close to me so I thought that had to be it) I looked under Jefferson County and went to FCC Licenses to be surprised that there was no 453.8375 in the list, I went up to the top and selected Expired Licenses and it turns out, it is Saint Vincents Hospital, it had the following callsigns: WPUP467 (Expired 10/08/2002), WPWA901 (Expired 10/01/2012) and KRI598 (Expired 10/25/2014). The Info is Out: 453.8375 (In: 458.8375), DCS: 155. It says in the application it is for "Emergency activities and Patient Transportation" And yes I am hearing things like "You've got a pick-up west side" so they are very much still using it for patient transportation. Is this illegal? How would the FCC Treat this? St. Vincents does have other licenses for other frequencies that are active but this Repeater is still active with no license.

Click to expand...

Yes - Serious

The FCC pushes Paperwork, they don't follow-up on expired licenses, unless someone files a complaint. And then fines are issued. Save the Healthcare industry some $$, see if that process works, of a friendly phone call

paulears said:

Are you guys serious? At my hospital you can't even find out who is in charge of patients because they are so busy - they're saving people's lives.

Is there any remote need on the scale of importance to set up as a private license police? I'm all in favour of going after illegal use of radio systems, but expired licenses in a genuine service, using it for genuine need?

Do you really think that a member of the public would even be able to get to the person? Nobody on reception will have a clue about any of the back office stuff. The hospital administrator has no interest in licenses - that's a delegated job.

Let's be honest here - this is a job for the countries administration, double checking licenses that have expired really are and are not mistakes. Leave it to them, and forget it.

If somebody knocked on my door and told me of an expired license of mine, that would be helpful, but also make me wonder why exactly somebody was checking me out? Handy info, but I would be wondering?

You could contact the FCC, explain you were listening in and noticed that an expired frequency was still being used, and let them sort it? Far better than becoming an unpaid Government employee!

Click to expand...

It not your job to notify licensees of expired licenses. Notify the fcc.

n3obl said:

It not your job to notify licensees of expired licenses. Notify the fcc.

Click to expand...

It may not be his JOB to notify the hospital but it is a courtesy to notify them.

Hes a radio / scanner guy so thats how he found out about it in the first place.
Years ago i was working at a 2-way radio shop and came across a volunteer fire dept who had been using radios on an expired license. I stopped by the station one day and politely informed them of the situation. Sure enough they had a copy of the license hanging on the wall and nobody even knew it was expired. They eventually got it fixed. Made some new friends that day.

marksroberson said:

well, I am so close to Saint Vincents that the other repeater I mentioned interferes with all the other UHF frequencies on my scanners, the repeater uses 200 watts this repeater however shows 100 watts on its latest license and it shows different locations, I just hope it dosn't bother my stuff either

Click to expand...

And the watt meter you used is a ????

Guys stop with all the worrying about the Rules. Do you think the FCC is going to jump on this with a swat team?
They might send a letter about this or even a notice of apparent liability. If they applicant applies they will be granted a new license. Those of you who are concerned about the violation and live near there give the hospital security or similar a call and let them know. Perhaps the person responsible retired and no one knew/knows who is responsible for renewing these licenses.
The hospital is there to help not hurt.

This has gotten a lot more attention than I originally thought. Before I go any farther I will say that I HAVE CONTACTED a individual with the SECURITY DEPARTMENT and stated the information as well as that I will be expecting a reply from him. OTHERWISE... I am still hearing transportation operations on this frequency as of right now, and I am hearing the units on reverse as well.

By the way... I have also found more expired licenses they are operating on (Both Repeaters):
464.5875 (WQBG521)
464.6 (WQBG521)

Here are some of my answers to your "Questions and Comments"

radiomanNJ1 said:

And the watt meter you used is a ????.

Click to expand...

ACCORDING TO THE FCC LISTING this frequency is using 100 Watts for that frequencies' repeater transmitter, under the same call sign (WQDY510) but other frequencies they are using 250 watts on repeater outputs.

paulears said:

I'm all in favour of going after illegal use of radio systems, but expired licenses in a genuine service, using it for genuine need?

Click to expand...

A expired license IS a expired license, is it not? So....Wouldn't that be illegal use of radio systems?
Plus, they have a handful of other frequencies that are active that I have not heard a peep on, Even though they are listed as repeaters...But they choose to operate on the handful that are expired

paulears said:

Anyway - it seems a lot of effort to get labelled as a trouble maker?

Click to expand...

I am Certainly not trying to label anyone as a trouble maker! It just seems odd to me that they have a expiration date on the license they didn't look at, or renew for that fact, and received a official FCC "Renewal Reminder Notice" 2 months before and didn't take action!

ecps92 said:

The FCC pushes Paperwork, they don't follow-up on expired licenses, unless someone files a complaint. And then fines are issued. Save the Healthcare industry some $$, see if that process works, of a friendly phone call

Click to expand...

I have contacted them and noticed that both e-mail addresses are the same, so I just sent one, if I hear back I will inform them of the additional frequencies I have found that are expired, if not, I will give them a call.

n3obl said:

It not your job to notify licensees of expired licenses. Notify the fcc.

Click to expand...

If this problem continues, I will see what the FCC can do

I hope this clears up a few things, and I will make another post if and when I hear back

paulears said:

Anyway - it seems a lot of effort to get labelled as a trouble maker?

Click to expand...

Cultural differences. Being "labeled a troublemaker" doesn't much matter one way or another here. Overall, sheep don't garner much respect in the USA.

As to licenses, I personally don't care. You will never find me making a report to the FCC and the only time you would find me talking to another about their own use of radio waves is if it somehow interfered with my own use. You and I wouldn't bother the hospital, but, for different reasons all together.

Bargaining Chip!

The police of a small town in a state and and county next to where I live have been operating on frequencies for which the license has been expired over ten years. I haven't contacted the FCC as I really don't want to get up in the town business. More than likely, it is a local radio shop oversight anyway.

I have, however, made a note of the call sign and expiration date as a bargaining chip if I'm ever stopped by the police. That's sure to brand me as a trouble maker from out of state!

While a license may be expired, it is still Lawful to operate because the users are still in compliance with the Spirit of the law. Don't get your panties in a bunch just yet, read on.

It is going to be tough for many of you to wrap your head around this, but even though transmitting with an expired license is technically illegal, it is still a Lawful operation. Are they in violation of FCC rules? Yes, they clearly are. BUT, without getting into all the technical lawyer-ese jargon, they are still (technically) in "compliance" because of the Spirit of the law aspect, and are in fact operating Lawfully.

Now, I know a bunch of arm-chair self appointed Attorney wanna-bees are going to chime in and give examples of how if they let their license expire and keep transmitting, they will be fined and banned from the airwaves because it has happened before.

Yes it certainly has happened, because in all probability they did not fight it, or did not do well enough to fight it. Who is going to fine a hospital and take away their communications? Nobody. They would not even think about ever doing so. But a single individual? Yes!

There is the difference - it's not the offense, but the circumstances and details surrounding a simple violation. You can expect an individual to be responsible for their own personal license and would know if they are in compliance or not, but a company with many users is much more difficult to self-police. It is assumed the private individual operator with an expired license is willfully operating outside the spirit of their rules because it is 1 person and 1 license.

The hospital did have a valid license, so it's not like they just started using a frequency they liked, but they had gone the route to be in compliance from the beginning, but things do get lost and forgotten in big offices. The private individual is an entirely different matter, where the expiration is hardly likely to go unnoticed. Please don't bring up the exceptions to that statement because we all know it is a general rule of thumb. There are exceptions to everything, which only further proves the rule.

If you look up "Spirit of the Law -vs- Letter of the Law", and the difference between "Lawful and Legal", you will get a sense of what I am saying here. And PLEASE don't use Wikipedia for obvious reasons.

If an expired license at a hospital is so bothersome, then give them a call and explain that you noticed an oversight and would like to call their attention to it. Most likely the hospital Administrator will be so thankful he will buy you lunch at the Patient Cafeteria.

There are a few really good hospitals out there, and a few more that are non-profits really helping patients. I have no idea how the one in question fits in.

Most hospitals are for-profit and they routinely bill $100-200 for a liter of saline, which costs them a buck. And they routinely hang the saline on every admission in the ER, need it or not. So when it comes to doing a hospital a favor, or saving them a $10,000 fine...there's a short list I would do the favor for. Most would be better off getting the stick rather than the carrot.

Apply for a local license on the expired frequency, form a business for "emergency medical transport communications and logistics" if need be. Invest a couple of bucks. Then when the FCC issues it as a matter of course (since there's no one licensed for that frequency there now) you file a complaint and notify the hospital that they are poaching your frequency. And for a reasonable fee, they can sublet your services if they want to continue using it. Plus of course, a set-up and penalty fee.

There's no excuse for a hospital not keeping up with business and licenses. It just means the administration needs to be fired, before their negligence in general kills a few more people. Guaranteed their housekeeping is not keeping things sterile and their staff are killing patients from medical errors caused by poor staffing (working extended shifts) as well.

Feeling guilty? OK, then take the profits and donate them to one of the many medical charities that really ARE doing good jobs.

It's EXTREMELY common. For all the reasons cited, and that most people don't know what to do with the license, so they file it away and never look at it again. I just had that with one of my friends who walked into a job where radio licenses at multiple locations were expired. License? We need one?

It is possible to skate by for many years with an expired radio license. Where problems happen is when a frequency coordinator sees an expired license and plops someone else on top of them. That happens a lot, too, and the organization with the expired license has absolutely no standing if they cause interference to or receive interference from the station that has a valid license. If that's the case, they have to change frequencies (with the expense of reprogramming - or sometimes even recrystalling... although all of that stuff was supposed to have gone away...). It's not the coordinator's burden to check to see if anyone with an expired license is using the frequency. Sometimes they call - if a point of contact is listed - and other times, all the contact info has changed and was never updated.

The FCC usually gives these expirations a pass, in terms of fining them. The FCC isn't in the "gotcha" business when it comes to places like hospitals, police departments, or fire companies. But that's not guaranteed. The FCC has stepped in to mitigate interference and has ordered that the expired licensee first get special temporary authority and then get properly licensed from there.