Delivers1234
Member
Hi all. So do people use capicators to bulk up mobile equipment in a vechicle. I'm planning on getting my ham. I know there may need to be an amp for the receiver.
Thanks
Delivers1234
Thanks
Delivers1234
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Capacitors
- Thread starter Delivers1234
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mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
A capacitor can help with very short term voltage sags, but they won't make up for an undersized power supply, power source or less than ideal wiring.
For a mobile install for a VHF, UHF or dual band radio, you'll need a power feed directly off the battery with wiring sized to support a 15 - 20 amp load.
If you were looking at running HF radios, they tend to pull more power, upwards of 30 amps, so your wiring size would need to be increased.
For a mobile install for a VHF, UHF or dual band radio, you'll need a power feed directly off the battery with wiring sized to support a 15 - 20 amp load.
If you were looking at running HF radios, they tend to pull more power, upwards of 30 amps, so your wiring size would need to be increased.
Hi 1234
I don't think I have ever heard of anyone using capacitors to 'bulk up' their radios...I'm not sure what you meant by that. They are used to bypass noise sources like those from alternators and the vehicle's electronics... and I guess in the case of some millisecond current demands, like voice peaks on sideband, they could smooth out the radio's supply voltage... but I am afraid you have me at a loss what to say. The same, also about the Receive Amp...sorry...............more details about what you need??
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......................................CF
I don't think I have ever heard of anyone using capacitors to 'bulk up' their radios...I'm not sure what you meant by that. They are used to bypass noise sources like those from alternators and the vehicle's electronics... and I guess in the case of some millisecond current demands, like voice peaks on sideband, they could smooth out the radio's supply voltage... but I am afraid you have me at a loss what to say. The same, also about the Receive Amp...sorry...............more details about what you need??
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......................................CF
There have been capacitors sold in the past big CB era to filter car ignition or other vehicle interference, but I don't remember any being advertised as voltage boosters. I have been using one of the small Chinese dual banders due to my limited mounting space, and it runs very well off my accessory plug. These radios typically run 10-25 watts and don't approach the current limit of the plug. I fuse both leads with 10 amp fuses and have had no problems in the year the radio has been in the car. I can hit our RACES repeater from anywhere in the county with a noise free signal with 10 watts.
In the high power car audio arena, banks of multi farad (yes multi farad, 10 farads and more), are used to provide a lot of short term energy. The capacitor banks are placed close to the audio amplifier to help over come I squared R wiring losses or so they believe.
Some in the high power CB arena have used them to provide the same thing for the RF amplifiers to help to provide the biggest swing.
For normal operation in the amateur service just observe the correct power wiring protocol.
As mentioned previously, more information is needed regarding your comment about a receive amplifier.
Some in the high power CB arena have used them to provide the same thing for the RF amplifiers to help to provide the biggest swing.
For normal operation in the amateur service just observe the correct power wiring protocol.
As mentioned previously, more information is needed regarding your comment about a receive amplifier.
prcguy
Member
I use a 500w SGC HF amplifier mobile in a 2008 Toyota Tundra. I ran #4 cable direct to the battery to power the radio and amp and when the amp was running all the dash lights would blink like a 70s disco thing and the engine nearly died. The lights on the radio also blinked a little from the voltage drop on voice peaks where the peak current is around 70 to 90A.
For awhile I ran a 110AH gel cell right at the amplifier, charged from the main battery and #4 cables. That fixed all the problems (I admit some were RFI) but you always have a problem with 2 batteries separated by such long cables, they always fight each other and it really reduces their life span.
Then I came across an "Ultra Capacitor" kit that gives you 58 Farads (!) from six 350 Farad caps in series. I swapped the 110AH gel cell with the Ultra Capacitor and it appears to work better than with the 110AH gel cell. No blinking dash or radio lights, full power on voice peaks, which hit around 700w on some bands.
In my opinion every high power HF mobile installation should have one of these: UCAP16 58 Ultracapacitor Module | eBay
When charged, this thing will actually power the amplifier to full output for several seconds by itself with no battery or power supply connected. It also powered a 5w radio for about 5 minutes solid transmitting and receiving all by itself. If you connect it to a 12V 20A power supply to charge it you have to wait several minutes until its charged and it nearly kills the power supply.
prcguy
For awhile I ran a 110AH gel cell right at the amplifier, charged from the main battery and #4 cables. That fixed all the problems (I admit some were RFI) but you always have a problem with 2 batteries separated by such long cables, they always fight each other and it really reduces their life span.
Then I came across an "Ultra Capacitor" kit that gives you 58 Farads (!) from six 350 Farad caps in series. I swapped the 110AH gel cell with the Ultra Capacitor and it appears to work better than with the 110AH gel cell. No blinking dash or radio lights, full power on voice peaks, which hit around 700w on some bands.
In my opinion every high power HF mobile installation should have one of these: UCAP16 58 Ultracapacitor Module | eBay
When charged, this thing will actually power the amplifier to full output for several seconds by itself with no battery or power supply connected. It also powered a 5w radio for about 5 minutes solid transmitting and receiving all by itself. If you connect it to a 12V 20A power supply to charge it you have to wait several minutes until its charged and it nearly kills the power supply.
prcguy
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Delivers1234
Member
Hi. Thanks. I meant the receiver I have in the vechicle would need power via an amp, it realize now that the power is built in the receiver. The capacitor would be similar to someone installing an amplifier for speakers. I saw online that the capacitor clears up the noise in the line.
forget them. I had a car the kids installed 5 1f capacitors designed to "smooth th power" and keep from 'browning out'. If anything; it introduced noise and caused more brownouts than w/o them. plus they cary a of power that could hurt you.
They are absolutely ****ty for a cb amp....
They are absolutely ****ty for a cb amp....
I never thought of the high power car audio types, though I am often reminded they are everywhere when one drives by... I guess I am a dinosaur....
58 Farad's !-- wow!... what THAT must be like to hook up to a battery!.. Arc Furnace!...
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...........................CF
58 Farad's !-- wow!... what THAT must be like to hook up to a battery!.. Arc Furnace!...
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...........................CF
prcguy
Member
Yes, its a little scary to hook right to a car battery. I usually pre charge it or use a 1 ohm resistor to get around the initial super high current surge. Here is a Youtube video of the same capacitors I use starting a car. There is no battery in the car and the capacitor is the only source of power. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3x_kYq3mHM
I see the guy in the video does not have any balancing circuitry between the caps, which is not the best practice. You can also charge up a capacitor like this, come back a year later and it will still have most of its charge.
I also disagree with jassing and these are the very best things to use for high power amplifiers in cars, audio or RF.
prcguy
I see the guy in the video does not have any balancing circuitry between the caps, which is not the best practice. You can also charge up a capacitor like this, come back a year later and it will still have most of its charge.
I also disagree with jassing and these are the very best things to use for high power amplifiers in cars, audio or RF.
prcguy
I never thought of the high power car audio types, though I am often reminded they are everywhere when one drives by... I guess I am a dinosaur....
58 Farad's !-- wow!... what THAT must be like to hook up to a battery!.. Arc Furnace!...
.
...........................CF
Yes (smiling), I can see that creeping up on a full-voltage charge is the only sane way to go....It does give one pause to think about just what super high amperage- low voltages can do...I have a scarred finger- probably for life, when I got a beautiful gold ring between some 15VDC power supply terminals... so much for "low, safe, voltages" (I should have known better and been more careful)
.
Also, by-the-by, we have a site with one really, Really nasty transmitter-- the details I won't go into.... The power supply is in its own little locked room, with this awesome 'Shorting Stick"-- long plastic handled thing with a 1 inch copper grounding strap, hanging by the door.. what is notable about this stick is it's once pristine 2 inch brass ball at the end now looks like the crater'd face of the Moon-- and anyone one that goes into that room shudders at the sparks and barks from discharging the capacitors....
.
.......................................CF
.
Also, by-the-by, we have a site with one really, Really nasty transmitter-- the details I won't go into.... The power supply is in its own little locked room, with this awesome 'Shorting Stick"-- long plastic handled thing with a 1 inch copper grounding strap, hanging by the door.. what is notable about this stick is it's once pristine 2 inch brass ball at the end now looks like the crater'd face of the Moon-- and anyone one that goes into that room shudders at the sparks and barks from discharging the capacitors....
.
.......................................CF
prcguy
Member
The ring thing is one of the few ways low voltage under 25v can hurt you, hot metal! But so can getting across the vehicle battery with no Ultra Capacitor.
Its a little off topic but my last job site had 56 C and Ku band Klystron amplifiers, each with an 8 to 9kV @ 1A power supply and each one had its own shorting stick. Not to mention the large insulated sticks with hooks to pull a human body away from the equipment in case of a problem.
prcguy
Its a little off topic but my last job site had 56 C and Ku band Klystron amplifiers, each with an 8 to 9kV @ 1A power supply and each one had its own shorting stick. Not to mention the large insulated sticks with hooks to pull a human body away from the equipment in case of a problem.
prcguy
Yes (smiling), I can see that creeping up on a full-voltage charge is the only sane way to go....It does give one pause to think about just what super high amperage- low voltages can do...I have a scarred finger- probably for life, when I got a beautiful gold ring between some 15VDC power supply terminals... so much for "low, safe, voltages" (I should have known better and been more careful)
.
Also, by-the-by, we have a site with one really, Really nasty transmitter-- the details I won't go into.... The power supply is in its own little locked room, with this awesome 'Shorting Stick"-- long plastic handled thing with a 1 inch copper grounding strap, hanging by the door.. what is notable about this stick is it's once pristine 2 inch brass ball at the end now looks like the crater'd face of the Moon-- and anyone one that goes into that room shudders at the sparks and barks from discharging the capacitors....
.
.......................................CF
This is absolutely false if the capacitors are installed correctly. Correct installation is the shortest physically possible run of heavy wire between capacitors and amp, and capacitor leads and battery leads connected directly to the amp in parallel.
If the capacitors are installed in series between the battery and amp, the additional resistance can cause brownout problems.
Capacitors do not generate RF noise, arcing caused by current flowing through a bad connection does.
Capacitors will not solve an inadequate power supply problem, they simply fill in when the load draws large transient currents. The power supply (battery or whatever) has to be able to handle the average current draw over time.
Ah ! - the "Hooks!"... I think the Safety Compliance people here figure they aren't necessary- that it would always be a body retrieval, never a rescue...lol
Years ago when radio NSS at Naval Station Annapolis was operating, I got a special tour of it's transmitter facility. The 20Khz, One-Million watt station was impressive!-- it's huge Goliath antenna, 1200 foot central tower, the Helix Room with its multi-story high "loading coil" (that was some loading coil!)-- all left me in awe.... but it was also some of the small things that really stuck with me--- for there, beside the transmitter enclosure was a neatly hung stretcher, folded blankets, and an enormous, long "Shepard's Crook" insulated hook-- the meaning was obvious!.....
.
(sorry Delivers1234, we got off topic here, a bit, didn't we.....smiles...)
.
......................... CF
Years ago when radio NSS at Naval Station Annapolis was operating, I got a special tour of it's transmitter facility. The 20Khz, One-Million watt station was impressive!-- it's huge Goliath antenna, 1200 foot central tower, the Helix Room with its multi-story high "loading coil" (that was some loading coil!)-- all left me in awe.... but it was also some of the small things that really stuck with me--- for there, beside the transmitter enclosure was a neatly hung stretcher, folded blankets, and an enormous, long "Shepard's Crook" insulated hook-- the meaning was obvious!.....
.
(sorry Delivers1234, we got off topic here, a bit, didn't we.....smiles...)
.
......................... CF
prcguy
Member
There are small power supplies on the market for 100W amateur SSB service that have a 5A internal power supply and a bunch of Ultra Capacitors to supply peak currents during SSB. Even though a radio may need upwards of 20A on peaks, these power supplies work great on SSB. Try to use them at 100W FM or other continuous current mode and they will only produce the high current for several seconds then drop back to 5A. Gamma Research is one company that makes these: Gamma Research - Portable Power Supply - Ham Amateur Radio
prcguy
prcguy
Yes (smiling), I can see that creeping up on a full-voltage charge is the only sane way to go....It does give one pause to think about just what super high amperage- low voltages can do...I have a scarred finger- probably for life, when I got a beautiful gold ring between some 15VDC power supply terminals... so much for "low, safe, voltages" (I should have known better and been more careful)
.
Also, by-the-by, we have a site with one really, Really nasty transmitter-- the details I won't go into.... The power supply is in its own little locked room, with this awesome 'Shorting Stick"-- long plastic handled thing with a 1 inch copper grounding strap, hanging by the door.. what is notable about this stick is it's once pristine 2 inch brass ball at the end now looks like the crater'd face of the Moon-- and anyone one that goes into that room shudders at the sparks and barks from discharging the capacitors....
.
.......................................CF
Ouch! Sorry to hear that! I long ago stopped wearing any jewelry and switched to a plastic watch while at work having seen too many hits or near misses around "hot" panels or devices. Even worked at one of the government labs for a while adjacent to a cap bank. The whole thing was enclosed in mesh cage. You had to schedule when you'd be around it. Just getting close to it would make the hair on your arms stand up.
Smiling!... High Voltages, like that mesh surrounded enclosure, really are creepy.... In college the physic department had a big Van de Graff generator. Students and faculty used to get a charge (literally) out of standing on an insulted platform and having that thing make their hair stand straight out, any metallic jewelry sparking with coronal discharges, etc.... they got me to try it *once*-- that was it!!-- every part of me tingled; I then and there concluded that was as close to ever experiencing a "skin effect" I ever wanted. Today if I even Think! I am experiencing that feeling I recoil as if I just discovered a viper under a stone....
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Back to Capacitors---Where I live the humidity can be in the single digits. I find it amazing that equipment that was turned off and put away for what seems like years ago still has charges on power supply capacitors. Without the humidity those charges just don't seem to bleed off... I have been bitten a few times.
'
Ah yes, the jewelry- I stopped wearing anything on my wrists- no watches, bracelets... long ago... but my ring I just.... well, I was just stupid.... its gone now too, but that scar remains as a reminder that there are vipers lurking in those innocent (low voltage) cabinets!...
.
................................CF
.
Back to Capacitors---Where I live the humidity can be in the single digits. I find it amazing that equipment that was turned off and put away for what seems like years ago still has charges on power supply capacitors. Without the humidity those charges just don't seem to bleed off... I have been bitten a few times.
'
Ah yes, the jewelry- I stopped wearing anything on my wrists- no watches, bracelets... long ago... but my ring I just.... well, I was just stupid.... its gone now too, but that scar remains as a reminder that there are vipers lurking in those innocent (low voltage) cabinets!...
.
................................CF
mmckenna
I ♥ Ø
Ah yes, the jewelry- I stopped wearing anything on my wrists- no watches, bracelets... long ago... but my ring I just.... well, I was just stupid.... its gone now too, but that scar remains as a reminder that there are vipers lurking in those innocent (low voltage) cabinets!...
.
................................CF
I had a co-worker get his ring across a 48 volt battery plant at one of our sites. Yeah, he wasn't wearing gloves, left his ring on, coupled with stupid battery shelf design.
He flung his ring off and ran out of the room. Had to chase him down and take him to medical. Then I had to go back and find his ring, which had landed under some other equipment. It was still warm. A nice gold tinge to the battery terminal, too.
That was 15 years ago. His ring still has the divot, his finger still has the scarring, and he no longer will touch power systems.
Fear is a very valid and useful response.
I've thought of switching to a silicone wedding band, but I just can't get used to the idea. Luckily the wife understands when I forget to reinstall the ring and come home from work without it.
mmckenna;2647602 I've thought of switching to a silicone wedding band said:My wife got used to the idea that I'd be walking around "unbranded" quite some time ago. Better to come home in one piece. However, the ring is the least of things that keeps me in line.
I've never worn a wedding ring because of work. My wife knew that before she married me so she cheaped out on my ring and used the money to get herself a better ring.
Gold contamination was the reason I didn't wear it at the first job and all of the above reasons are why I don't wear it at my current job.
Gold contamination was the reason I didn't wear it at the first job and all of the above reasons are why I don't wear it at my current job.
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