Best Ham Radio to Purchase for Specific Situation

Hi Everyone. I am "newb" in the Ham world and I apologize in advance if the questions have been answered in the past or is outright impossible to answer. Please bear with my long scenario.

I live in Southern California (Orange County), and due to recent natural disasters occurring in the east coast and around the world, I realized that in case of an earthquake occurring in the afternoon, I will be unable to communicate with my wife (likely at work) and children (likely at school or home) when I am at work if the cell phone towers are damaged as a result of the quake or if there is too much traffic signals for the cell tower to handle. For this type of situation, I would like to be able to communicate with my wife and my children and vice versa.

We are prepared to take the technical license exam in order to be able to communicate at 2m and 70cm. Also, the communication will be via simplex communication, in case any repeaters around my vicinity are not working.

Now for the questions.

1. If I purchase three 5 watt HT ham radios with after market antennas, would I be able to communicate with my wife (4 miles north of me) and children (5 miles southeast of me) via simplex communication? The elevation is around 100-200 feet above sea level between us and populated with buildings.
2. Will my wife be able to communicate with my children (8 miles apart), via simplex communication. Same terrain.
3. Would purchasing three 10 watt HT ham radios with after market antennas make a difference?
4. If any of the above is possible, which 5 or 10 watt HT ham radios with after market antennas should I purchase. Please note that I will be only using the equipment for the above scenario, so my budget is less than $200.
5. If it is impossible for any HT ham radios to have an actual range of 5-8 miles in an urban city, such as mine, are there any other alternatives? Mobile ham? At the end of the day, I would like to be able to reach my family after an earthquake to make sure they are alright.

I appreciate your help.

Talking simplex between HTs in a urban environment will be limited to only a mile or two max

Even 50 watt dual band mobiles have a hard time going more than a few miles in urban conditions

So you would likely be relying on repeaters being up and operating

MOTEX said:

Talking simplex between HTs in a urban environment will be limited to only a mile or two max

Even 50 watt dual band mobiles have a hard time going more than a few miles in urban conditions

So you would likely be relying on repeaters being up and operating

Click to expand...

I disagree. I talk simplex on my Baofeng BF8-HP across Urban conditions 12 - 15 miles, no problem.
I'm just saying it works for me and people on the other end of my conversations.

Get everyone licensed, get everyone radios, and then make sure everyone uses them every day. Nothing is more useless then equipment you never learned to use.

Find a few repeaters that work well where you need them, and are equipped with emergency power.

Experiment with the radios to see where they work and don't work simplex from where you all are.

Above all, realize that the utility of ham radio isn't there in an emergency if you never actually use it or understand it.

zz0468 said:

Get everyone licensed, get everyone radios, and then make sure everyone uses them every day. Nothing is more useless then equipment you never learned to use.

Find a few repeaters that work well where you need them, and are equipped with emergency power.

Experiment with the radios to see where they work and don't work simplex from where you all are.

Above all, realize that the utility of ham radio isn't there in an emergency if you never actually use it or understand it.

Click to expand...

Well Said. Agreed!

Best Antenna

The best antenna is more important than the best radio. A vertical with a lot of gain for your base antenna.

For reference, I performed testing using a 5W HT connected to a J-Pole antenna at a 30 foot elevation. I was able to have reliable simplex communications for at least 10 miles away through a relatively flat suburban environment.

Some range estimates:
For 5W HT to HT under different conditions:
Distance - Miklor

Various radios types, power, antennas and environments:
https://radiofreeq.wordpress.com/20...munications-ham-vs-cb-vs-frs-vs-gmrs-vs-murs/

Hi "Lost"....
.
You don't have to apologize for being new to all this-- everyone was new once too.
.
The questions you ask are going to elicit all sorts of answers- and ciphering out the information that will be meaningful to you might prove daunting.
.
So I won't go into the technical aspects of your questions--- like what types of radios, etc,. you might consider-- but I'll pose a question to you...
.
Outside of emergencies, how likely is your family to ever use a ham radio? If they are just as a backup to 'cel fones, I think it is highly unlikely that should that emergency occur, anyone will be able to use them effectively.
.
Ham radio is a hobby, and the tales told of its uses, its effective communication's ranges, coverages, utility etc. - are all told by the hobbyists that have turn'd their hobby into their passions. Giving your family radios, just in case they might need them, will mean that the only time they will use them is when they can least afford the learning curve. Your family, first and foremost, will want to engage in the hobby. This doesn't even address that they will have to carry these radios... carrying 'bulky' radios, -- with them at all times to make any emergency preparedness meaningful ...(I work in this field, and I can't get my lab to carry their HT's in the field when out on projects... also I know few teenagers -especially the girls-- that will want to lug around 'one of those.')
.
On top of this, you've not said if anyone else in the family has licenses yet. Its been my experience that getting a family over that barrier is like herding cats. I can number on one hand the families I have met that are 'all hams'-- (and have plenty of fingers left over... )
.
I hate to throw cold water on you radio aspirations- so to that end, and as a compromise- have you consider'd GMRS? (General Mobile Radio) It can be quite useful, especially to families.... and if received positively, a launching point into ham radio.
.
.
Good luck guy, ....and please ask away with the questions....
.
.
........................CF
.
.
.

CF, that's good stuff.

CF beat me to it.
GMRS

GMRS is pretty much the answer here, as nobody will need to take ham tests, etc.

Also, the Motorola DTR radios work amazingly well, especially in an urban environment, but 1 radio maxes out your budget.

Having 5-8 mile consistent coverage with just HTs is definitely going to be the issue.

Thanks CF. To answer your question, the likelihood of the family using the HT radio outside of a disaster will be slim to none. The plan was to get everyone licensed, practice and test them, and then program the radios to work as walkie talkies if cell phone towers were down after a natural disaster. The radios would be placed in my trunk, my wife's trunk and our emergency kit at home.

I never really thought about GMRS. My understanding was that the distances with GMRS was 1-2 miles in an urban setting radio to radio and without a repeater. This is why I posed the question to see if HT radios can reach 5-10 miles radio to radio without a repeater. If they can, then I would have a slew of questions concerning which radio, which antenna, which bandwidth, etc. Aside from Steve, the consensus seems to say, it is very unlikely to get such a distance without a repeater. If so, then GMRS would be a good fit using a repeater due to a smaller learning curve and the ease of obtaining licenses.

Just to be clear, neither a 5 watt nor 10 watt HT radio, with an after market antenna (notwithstanding the brand, make or model of the radio or antenna) within my price range can have an actual 5-10 mile distance in an urban setting without using a repeater. Correct?

lost_in_translation said:

To answer your question, the likelihood of the family using the HT radio outside of a disaster will be slim to none. The plan was to get everyone licensed, practice and test them, and then program the radios to work as walkie talkies if cell phone towers were down after a natural disaster. The radios would be placed in my trunk, my wife's trunk and our emergency kit at home.

Click to expand...

The big problem with your plan is that when the emergency hits, the batteries will be no good (they must be exercised and charged regularly to retain their charge and ability to take a charge). This can be mitigated if you get an add-on battery pack that uses standard batteries (often AA size) that often can be kept on hand and used for other uses so they always stay fresh.

Another thing to think about is how you might use the radios for non-emergency things. We have a family that uses their ham radios to communicate on the way home from work and/or school most days. It helps them to plan on dinner times and avoid traffic congestions (the one at home monitors the traffic broadcasts and web pages to check for alerts on the normal routes and suggests alternates when appropriate). It also allows for the "could you please pick up xxx on your way home" when they discover that something planned for dinner wasn't available. Not only does this help keep the family in touch, it gets them used to the radios and keeps them current on how to use them as well as keeping the radios working as expected.

lost_in_translation said:

I never really thought about GMRS. My understanding was that the distances with GMRS was 1-2 miles in an urban setting radio to radio and without a repeater. This is why I posed the question to see if HT radios can reach 5-10 miles radio to radio without a repeater.

Click to expand...

What you need to understand is that GMRS uses frequencies very similar to the 440 MHz ham frequencies. Another unlicensed service you could use (MURS) uses frequencies very similar to the 144 MHz ham frequencies. So at the end of the day, without a repeater, you are not going to get any more range with a ham HT than you are going to get with a GMRS/MURS HT, because the frequencies and characteristics are identical, for all intents and purposes.

Like I mentioned, the only radio I have come across that would come close to the range you are looking at is the Motorola DTR, but that range in a major urban environment is not going be realistic 100% of the time, nor do they meet your budget.

Going with GMRS, one base and two HTs, and a really good antenna up at least 30' (I don't know what the max height is for GMRS), and the distances you gave, would probably be workable. But you're going to be over the 200 dollar figure I suspect. Maybe not by much.

lost_in_translation said:

I live in Southern California (Orange County)…...

Click to expand...

So here's a likely scenario…

Orange County, Calif.
Big earthquake hits, N. Korea nukes us, terrorism, fill in the blank.

Cell phone voice call:
You and a few million of your close neighbors all trying to compete for air time. Chance of success, slim to none. Cell towers may be down, but likely not all of them. System will busy out, if it's working. Cell phone networks are a lot better than they used to be. Big issues are power and overloading. A lot of the backhaul is fiber, so damage from earthquakes is possible. Charging your phone will be an issue if the power is out. If the cellular networks are really impacted, your phone will have to work harder, so battery will get sucked up quickly.

Cell phone text messaging:
Slightly better chance as you just need to squeeze some data through the pipe. Might take a while, but it might happen, if the networks are up.

CB Radio:
Not sure about your kids and wife, but they probably won't want to listen to that. Might be a good/cheap option, coverage can be good, but you may have a lot of congestion. Not "portable" friendly if you want good coverage. Not going to be good at work unless they let you put an antenna up. Might work out of your cars.

GMRS radio:
You and a few 10's of thousands of people trying to use them. Disciplined, licensed users will try to do things right, but the cheap consumer grade radios might create some issues. With good radios, good antennas, you -might- get the coverage you need. But, like others have said, unless you practice using this stuff and understand the limitations that are out of your control, your frustration level will be high. Especially if your wife/kids are not tech types that are willing to learn how radios work, how to use them, how to set them up, what the limitations are, what happens when they don't work. Coverage may or may not be an issue, no one can tell you over the internet that you'll be able to talk 4-8 miles. You'll need to try, but be prepared for disappointment. GMRS repeaters exist, but it's not a free for all. They can be damaged, they are private property, they can get overloaded.

Amateur radio:
Same as GMRS. More spectrum to use, but it's radio. A bit more technical. The person using the radio needs to understand how to use it. There's more to it than turning it on and pushing the button. Operator skill is key, and that requires practice. As with GMRS, 70 centimeter band, 2 meter band, etc. are all going to be hit or miss with coverage on simplex. Repeaters may be a solution, but there's no way to guarantee that a repeater will be functional, available or free from users.

Relying on any terrestrial infrastructure in a disaster or major emergency isn't a good idea unless you have full control over it, it's design, it's maintenance, etc. And all that's expensive.

Trying to do several miles of simplex communications with something that fits in your trunk, is easy to use for kids or those with little training is going to be an issue.

HF radio (think shortwave) would be an option, but that's harder to operate and master. Big antennas, expensive, etc.

Satellite phones might be a better solution. Expensive, but a high likelihood you'll be able to contact someone else. Phones are $1000 each and up. Service with no included airtime is going to run you $50/month per phone. Requires clear view of the sky. Great option, but expensive.

Satellite text messaging services. There are a few companies that will sell you a little puck that will allow you to send text messages from your cell phones to a satellite. Not quite as expensive as satellite phones, but not cheap. You'll need three of them.

Living in California most of my life, I've been through a lot of earthquakes, disasters, etc. I do not rely on cell phones. Cell phones are a purely convenience item. If they work, great, but I don't put all my trust in them.

As an amateur radio operator and employed in the communications industry, I have access to a lot of radios. My wife has her amateur license. My son does not. I have a base radio at the house (VHF, 2 meter band). I have mobiles in both vehicles. I have a few portables, but we don't carry them around. I'm on the coast, so some flat lands, some hills, some ocean. From work with a directional antenna, on a hill, using simplex I can usually talk to my wife at home or just about anywhere she is in the car (20 - 30 miles). From home with the base, I get several miles, mostly limited by terrain. From vehicle to vehicle, I can get from 2 or 3 miles to 10 or more. All depends on the exact location. All of that is using amateur 2 meter band simplex. I can obviously do -much- better using repeaters.

Amateur radio may be a good solution, but it's not something you can do effectively by cramming for your licenses, buying some gear, and then putting it in a box for "emergencies". You have to practice, then practice some more. When you are done practicing, I'd recommend doing some more practicing. That's just the first week. Carry on for as long as you want to rely on it.
Amateur radio, and even CB, GMRS, etc. are not "consumer" friendly. Companies try to make it seem that way, but it just ain't so. Putting your family's safety on that would not be advised.

Most of all, remember that radios are just ONE tool you should have in your tool box. If you decide to use any sort of communications device, you need to have several back up plans, because I will promise you, one or more of your plans will fail. Have meet up locations. Use wired telephones, use cell phones, by all means, get some radios, but don't rely on just -one- of these means of communications.

mmckenna, first, it took guts to admit that you live in southern California.

Second, with ham radios during a true emergency, is anyone going to crack the whip about unlicensed users?

KK4JUG said:

mmckenna, first, it took guts to admit that you live in southern California.

Click to expand...

I don't, I live in the better half of California, the Northern half.

KK4JUG said:

Second, with ham radios during a true emergency, is anyone going to crack the whip about unlicensed users?

Click to expand...

I highly doubt it, but I'm sure the radio cops will be out there.

Granted, Hurricane Katrina was a long time ago, in communications technology years, but we did learn a lot from that natural disaster. One of the lessons learned was that cell phone text messaging does eventually get through. I'm talking about original Short Message Service (plain text) not multimedia messages (MMS). Another lesson learned was that systems which depend on fixed infrastructure are vulnerable. Many sites have been hardened since then. But, you are still dependent on someone designing the site to be as disaster-proof as possible (what happens if hurricane force winds blow a 2x4 through the site generator's radiator?) and then maintaining the site.

As for California, we should pay attention to what they do. Parts of CA have a huge concentration of people crammed into an area that's prone to natural disasters. They've been there, done that and figured out what works and what doesn't. Same for Florida. I think it worth nothing that FL seemed to fair better during the recent hurricanes than TX did. Maybe the storms were different. Maybe the lay of the land is different. Maybe the level of preparation is different. Maybe the mindset is different. But, we all should watch and learn.

In my expereince, urban coverage will vary entirely with population density. For example, a few years ago I was sitting on a bridge header (at work) having a simplex conversation with a friend who was 7-8 miles away (both of us were mobile). The radio would put out 35W but there was no gain in performance between running the radio at 20W or 35W. Now of course, this was flat Lubbock, TX (which is rural/sub-urban by socal definitions). 5W just didn't cut it. This was on 446.100 MHz, known locally as Upper Potato Net and yes, there is a Lower Potato Net on 146.550 MHz.

Anyway, my point is there are too many variables to rely strictly on a repeater or strictly on simplex. My advice is to create an actual communications plan. Find out what amateur and/or GMRS repeaters are around. Find out which ones have backup power (this usually takes a simple letter to the licensee if it's not listed). Make your decision on which service to use based off of that. Then out of those, find the ones with overlapping coverage in the areas needed (this will require physical testing). Make a plan with your family to meet-up on a certain repeater at a set time unitl initial contact is made. (i.e. Repeater 1 at the top of the hour, Repeater 2 at the first quarter, Repeater 3 at the half, Repeater 4 at the third quarter then roll back around to Repeater 1 at the top). If all repeater options are non-operational, then move to simplex as everyone attempts to move closer to a common rally point.

It'll take planning and failover to provide reliable communications for your family in the event of a disaster. As stated, Katrina was a long time ago and a lot has been learned from it on the mainland,
the state of communications during Harvey and Irma are examples of that on all fronts. You can loose an individual site but with a well thought out plan, you don't rely on a single site (as the more methods of communications you have, the more your chances increase of being able to communicate).

Also high power handhelds, don't offer anything truly practical aside from quicker battery drain.