FRS/GMRS for Official Government Use

BlueDevil · Oct 20, 2017

I have a feeling that I already know the answer however I have been unable to find the exact language to prove my gut feeling.

Are government agencies (local, county, state, federal, etc.) permitted to use FRS radios for official government business/communications?

Here is the scenario. My local government is working on preparing for various natural disasters. One of their ideas is to outfit all the City Department Directors with a small bag of essential equipment and supplies including a portable radio. The thought is that during a disaster most, if not all, forms of communications will be down. They are planning on using FRS type radios for their backup/emergency communications.

Obviously there are SEVERAL issues as to why this is a bad idea but I want to focus on the legality of it and whether or not a government entity has authority to use FRS for official communications.

iMONITOR · Oct 20, 2017

I don't believe there are any legal issues, as long as the communications are not classified, which I'm certain they would not be.

Just about any functional issues FRS/GMRS would exist with most of the alternatives as well.

Here in Michigan they recently authorized DTE (our power company) to use P25 radios linked into MPSCS (Michigan Public Safety Communications System), which really surprised me. Considering PD/FD/EMS depend on electrical power, it makes sense to me.

mmckenna · Oct 20, 2017

Local, County, State:
Not an issue.
At one point, even local/state agencies could get GMRS licenses. FRS, and the recent rule changes, are OK, too.
There's nothing in the FRS and GMRS rules that would not allow a local/county/state agency that was following the rules/licensed (where applicable) from doing it.

Federal government, however, falls under the NTIA. NTIA says:
7.5.8 Federal Government Use of the Family Radio Service (FRS)
Federal Government entities are authorized to purchase and operate radios certified by the FCC in the Family Radio Service (FRS), pursuant to Part 95 Subpart B of the FCC Rules and Regulations (Title 47, Code of Federal Regulations). Federal users will be accorded the same privileges as non-federal users. Because FRS users must share each channel and no user is assured protection from interference caused by another authorized user, federal entities may not purchase and operate FRS radios for planned communications operations that safeguard human life or property.

The NTIA redbook covers this. Not sure how the new GMRS/FRS rules will impact it, but I suspect they'd go along with what the FCC says.

BlueDevil · Oct 20, 2017

Thanks for the quick replies. I figured that the regulations would be a little more strict in regards to government entities using the FRS/GMRS channels. Thanks again!!

mmckenna · Oct 20, 2017

For GMRS (latest version):

§95.1705 Individual licenses required; eligibility; who may operate; cooperative use.
(4) Any non-individual person that holds a grandfathered GMRS license may allow individuals to operate its grandfathered GMRS station(s) only in accordance with the following paragraphs:
(iv) A governmental unit may allow its employees to operate its GMRS station(s).

TampaTyron · Oct 20, 2017

Additionally, any situation where a local public safety agency has to use FRS/GMRS because all other options are not available is a situation where FCC regulations are no longer a priority. When was the last time someone in a disaster got spanked for using a radio to save property/lives? I have seen the US Fed Gov unofficially relax their radio regulations in the middle of a disaster because it was the only option available......... TT.

PrivatelyJeff · Oct 20, 2017

I would look into just getting a couple frequencies and using some good quality radios that have mire power, battery battery life and are more dependable.

K2RNI · Oct 21, 2017

JeffDS3 said:
I would look into just getting a couple frequencies and using some good quality radios that have mire power, battery battery life and are more dependable.

Yeah better to go with itinerants at least, used HT1000s don't cost too much. Just imagine the fun someone would have messing with that. Quite a few bubble packs are capable of tone scanning as well as other handhelds and RTL sdr.

spongella · Oct 21, 2017

I work with MRC (Medical Reserve Corps) and CERT; we use FRS radios as they are inexpensive, easy to program, highly portable, and fit the bill perfectly. I know of no regulation barring their use. They are a godsend.

mmckenna · Oct 21, 2017

spongella said:
I work with MRC (Medical Reserve Corps) and CERT; we use FRS radios as they are inexpensive, easy to program, highly portable, and fit the bill perfectly. I know of no regulation barring their use. They are a godsend.

And, the fact they'll run off a couple of AA batteries that you can pick up anywhere, and you've got about as cheap and foolproof a solution as you can get.

Sometimes the beauty is in the simplicity.

RichardKramer · Oct 21, 2017

FRS CH13

Here in Eastern PA the Civil Air Patrol cadets use FRS CH 13 at many air shows.

DaveNF2G · Oct 21, 2017

Government agencies that rely on non-government spectrum for routine operations are not acting wisely. There could be a valid complaint that they are tying up frequencies in a personal radio service for communications that can and should be done on spectrum allocated appropriately.

swen_out_west · Oct 21, 2017

spongella said:
I work with MRC (Medical Reserve Corps) and CERT; we use FRS radios as they are inexpensive, easy to program, highly portable, and fit the bill perfectly. I know of no regulation barring their use. They are a godsend.

I agree that the use of FRS radios within the legal limits is fine. Where I have the issue is one of the local C.E.R.T. members have installed a illegal F.R.S. simplex repeater, in direct violation of even the C.E.R.T. comms training that states that it is a violation of FCC rules to install equipment that extends the range of F.R.S.

Then they also have all the other C.E.R.T. members get BaoFeng UV-5r's to use with said illegal FRS repeater.

The biggest complaint I have against this practice is that it is set up with too much power and severely intereferes with the two adjacent GMRS channels. Then when some licensed GMRS user legally uses one of those 2 channels they start bullying those people with statements like 'You are interfering with an official Government Channel, cease and desist your transmission.'

PrivatelyJeff · Oct 21, 2017

swen_out_west said:
Then when some licensed GMRS user legally uses one of those 2 channels they start bullying those people with statements like 'You are interfering with an official Government Channel, cease and desist your transmission.'

I would key up and say to come at me then file a complaint.

N4GIX · Oct 22, 2017

I would say, "You are interfering maliciously with a Federally Licensed station using an illegal simplex repeater. An official complaint will be filed with the FCC along with a recording of your fraudulent claims."

Golay · Oct 22, 2017

Anyone can use FRS

BlueDevil said:
... Obviously there are SEVERAL issues as to why this is a bad idea but I want to focus on the legality of it and whether or not a government entity has authority to use FRS for official communications.

There are no issues at all with anyone using FRS for absolutely anything they want. Your agency, the dog catcher, the Lowe's, the kids fishing, anyone can use FRS for any reason they want.

And as far as being a bad idea, I'm thinking just the opposite. Wouldn't it be a lovely idea for some official agency like FEMA to tell people to have an FRS radio and fresh batteries stuck in a drawer somewhere. And when a natural disaster hits, and the phones are out, and the cell towers are down, that first responders will be monitoring FRS 1? So instead of hanging a bedsheet out your upstairs window, and hoping someone sees you waving it, you can call for help on a radio.

nd5y · Oct 22, 2017

Golay said:
There are no issues at all with anyone using FRS for absolutely anything they want.

Wrong.

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?&mc=true&node=se47.5.95_1331&rgn=div8

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?&mc=true&node=se47.5.95_1333&rgn=div8

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?&mc=true&node=se47.5.95_1531&rgn=div8

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?&mc=true&node=se47.5.95_1533&rgn=div8

Thunderknight · Oct 22, 2017

swen_out_west said:
I agree that the use of FRS radios within the legal limits is fine. Where I have the issue is one of the local C.E.R.T. members have installed a illegal F.R.S. simplex repeater, in direct violation of even the C.E.R.T. comms training that states that it is a violation of FCC rules to install equipment that extends the range of F.R.S.

Then they also have all the other C.E.R.T. members get BaoFeng UV-5r's to use with said illegal FRS repeater.

The biggest complaint I have against this practice is that it is set up with too much power and severely intereferes with the two adjacent GMRS channels. Then when some licensed GMRS user legally uses one of those 2 channels they start bullying those people with statements like 'You are interfering with an official Government Channel, cease and desist your transmission.'

??? If it's using 2 channels then it's not a simplex repeater.
I know of no prohibition on using a true simplex repeater (attached via e.g. the speakermic connector on a type accepted frs radio) on FRS. Can someone cite a rule otherwise?

iMONITOR · Oct 22, 2017

BlueDevil said:
Here is the scenario. My local government is working on preparing for various natural disasters. One of their ideas is to outfit all the City Department Directors with a small bag of essential equipment and supplies including a portable radio. The thought is that during a disaster most, if not all, forms of communications will be down. They are planning on using FRS type radios for their backup/emergency communications.

This doesn't really sound like any 'official government' involvement, or the decision would have already been made, likely by Homeland Security.

If the local want to keep FRS/GMRS radios around, no harm done.

swen_out_west · Oct 22, 2017

Thunderknight said:
??? If it's using 2 channels then it's not a simplex repeater.
I know of no prohibition on using a true simplex repeater (attached via e.g. the speakermic connector on a type accepted frs radio) on FRS. Can someone cite a rule otherwise?

No, it's simplex.

FRS straddles the GMRS channels (Superimposed). FRS is narrowband and GMRS is wideband. So by having too much power on the edges it interferes with the 2 adjacent channels.

Then as in my example the wideband from either of those two channels will (as it was designed) go into the FRS channel.

2 things on their thinking CERT takes priority :

1 - FRS does not take priority over the licensed use of the adjacent GMRS channels.
2 - They are the ones that are violating FCC rules and then intimidating other legal users under the guise of 'Official Government Channel' (Whole other discussion on CERT being official.)

FRS/GMRS for Official Government Use

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