Digital radio in a Business Capacity

I'm more or less looking at the future here, as my business currently uses analog radios and are working with an FCC frequency coordinator to get frequency pair assignments. And forgive me with this sounding a little bit hypothetical in nature, but it really is.

I'm hearing more and more that digital radio technologies such as DMR or P25 or others are being seen as 'better' because the reception doesn't diminish until you're at the very end of the range of a broadcast. I have two DMR radios (both Part 90 certified) here in Analog mode because that's what most of the clients we work with use in their companies, and until frequencies are coordinated for my business to use on our radios when out on on-site work at a client's location, I'm more or less just thinking for the future and the potential of using a digital system instead.

I've see threads here discussing digital systems being better, such as DMR or P25 or even trunked digital systems. But I'm not as fluent in those technologies as I am the analog equivalent technologies. I'm also not finding any details on how a business might implement one of these digital systems.

So this is more or less me looking for knowledge for the future. I'm looking into the feasibility of, within the next couple years or so, possibly moving to digital instead of staying on analog. What type of technologies should I be looking at, and is there any documentation of how to implement such technologies in a primarily mobile-only setup (that is, we don't have a fixed repeater or antenna station, it's mobile repeater technologies in use with temporary fixed antennas and no actually fixed antennas).

I would recommend DMR. It would be difficult for you to use P25, as that type of system is usually reserved for Public Safety and Government. Buy anything is possible.

I just recently switched my business system over to DMR from analog, and I'll never look back. Yes, the audio on analog is superior to digital. However, I have no reception issues until I reach the outer edge of my systems radius. There's also no static and very little background noise.

As far as getting coordinated for digital. Find a reputable coordinator and let them know what you want to do. They will handle all of the necessary filing with the FCC and coordinate your frequencies accordingly. I think I paid around $750.00 for analog AND digital with one fixed location (tower & repeater) and 6 simplex channels.
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clbsquared said:

I would recommend DMR. It would be difficult for you to use P25, as that type of system is usually reserved for Public Safety and Government. Buy anything is possible.

I just recently switched my business system over to DMR from analog, and I'll never look back. Yes, the audio on analog is superior to digital. However, I have no reception issues until I reach the outer edge of my systems radius. There's also no static and very little background noise.

As far as getting coordinated for digital. Find a reputable coordinator and let them know what you want to do. They will handle all of the necessary filing with the FCC and coordinate your frequencies accordingly. I think I paid around $750.00 for analog AND digital with one fixed location (tower & repeater) and 6 simplex channels.
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I'm currently working with Forest Industries Telecommunications (FIT) (landmobile.com) for coordination on the Analog side, but we're talking at least a year or more into the future before I jump onto the digital bandwagon (I only have two radios, and no mobile stations).

I do know that since these are mostly mobile only and no fixed locations, I'd be hunting the itinerant frequencies, but that's its own beast.

As for DMR, is the process for setting up the DMR radios the same for a business as it would be for a ham operator on the more public amateur DMR networks, that is apply for a DMR ID for the radios via DMR-MARC, and program the DMR radios with that individual ID? Considering that I don't yet have the callsign or frequency set for digital, this is, as I said, more theoretical pre-conversion research. (and I'm having a tough time finding guides on how to properly set up DMR; as I said, I'm much more fluent in the Analog side of things...)

I can't answer your question about Ham use. I'm strictly, business, commercial and public safety. I will tell you though, it's much easier to add digital to the license now, instead of adding it later on down the road. You will then have the option to switch from analog to digital at your own leisure, and the license part will be covered. Your call sign won't change, nor your frequencies.

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http://www.businessradiolicensing.com/

This is who I used. Jerry Walker handled my coordination and it was a very smooth process.

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Have your coordinator put both analogue and digital emissions on your license. One less thing to worry about down the road.


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clbsquared said:

I will tell you though, it's much easier to add digital to the license now, instead of adding it later on down the road. You will then have the option to switch from analog to digital at your own leisure, and the license part will be covered. Your call sign won't change.

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Nice. I'll have to follow up with my frequency coordinator, and see if I can get digital added to the license as they work on the coordination. I'm currently waiting for them to price-quote me for the coordination and am going to follow up with them today over email to see where the status is on the existing quote. If they can easily add the digital part to the license before they file the paperwork and can add that information to the quote that'd be great.

Thank you for all the information!

kayn1n32008 said:

Have your coordinator put both analogue and digital emissions on your license. One less thing to worry about down the road.


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Good thought. I've put that in my follow up email today to the coordinator to determine whether there's any extra costs associated in their coordination. Hopefully they can get back to me with a quote soon. I'd love to get the ball rolling on that sooner than later heh.

teward said:

As for DMR, is the process for setting up the DMR radios the same for a business as it would be for a ham operator on the more public amateur DMR networks, that is apply for a DMR ID for the radios via DMR-MARC, and program the DMR radios with that individual ID? Considering that I don't yet have the callsign or frequency set for digital, this is, as I said, more theoretical pre-conversion research. (and I'm having a tough time finding guides on how to properly set up DMR; as I said, I'm much more fluent in the Analog side of things...)

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Companies don't want you to have what you need to 'do it yourself'.... they want you to pay them to do it....

I could be wrong but I do not believe there is any real registration for radio IDs (along with lots of other things). Coordination of radio IDs beyond your system/usage makes more sense when you are connected to and/or part of a larger system or systems. If you have a self contain system and have no plans to "join" a larger system, it would seem that the radio IDs would be under the control of the local system admin.

"Color codes" and other things in a DMR system seems like it might require more coordination - particularly if used in a densely populated urban area where multiple users are using the same frequencies. I used to see this quite a bit in the Baltimore area.

As far as adding things to a license - it would seem you'd want to know what direction you're headed (at least a little) first. I see FCC licenses where the owners didn't seen to know for sure what they were going to do so they licensed for DMR, NXDN, analog... I've also seen licenses where the owners are licensed for conventional but are running trunk systems.... and others that are only licensed for analog but using some digital format. I would expect that at some point fines could be issued to some of these system owners that are doing other than what they are licensed for....

It would seem you'd want to discuss with a qualified company what your plans are and get some guidance and recommendations. I suspect some companies will sell you services based on what you tell them you think you want vs. an understanding of what you need and should do. That could lead to having to do it all over later... i.e. pay me now and pay me later.

No need to coordinate TG or RID like HAM DMR


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I've got a good mix of customers (business) that are analog and digital. Many went to digital but underutilized the system. Personally, I prefer digital and many digital capable radios actually perform better on digital compared to analog (if the infrastructure is setup correctly).

Honestly, I'm almost at the point where I always recommend new DMR repeaters be installed in a pseudo-trunking arrangement (but that tends to vendor lock) as it's very rare that a customer interested in the dual time slot system wants just one or two talk groups.

troymail said:

It would seem you'd want to discuss with a qualified company what your plans are and get some guidance and recommendations. I suspect some companies will sell you services based on what you tell them you think you want vs. an understanding of what you need and should do. That could lead to having to do it all over later... i.e. pay me now and pay me later.

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Well, the thing is I've already spent the greater part of this year prepping to file myself, and after all my research and planning, I had filed previously for IG under Itinerant with both Analog and Digital emissions, as I do not have a fixed location of operation and planned to look into digital over the next two years, however the FCC rejected, stating that I need coordination among other things. Hence working with a coordinator now.

You're not wrong though, with the whole "having to do it all over later". The nice thing is, working with the coordinator now, nothing's been filed yet, we're still in the discussion/planning phase. Digital as a primary method only just came into my radar only in the recent two months, before that the entire system was Analog-planned.

Digital radios have some advantages and disadvantages.

Their transmission audio quality is poor
They do offer more security from eavesdropping

Analog radios are far cheaper and all analog radios work with all other analog radios

Digital radios only work with the specific system they are designed for

There is ALOT of misinformation out there on digital radios.

They use clever language tricks like " digital has better EFFECTIVE range"

What that REALLY means is digital transmissions are ALL or nothing.

Long after digital falls victim to the "cliff" effect, analog is still readable.

But you can't sell digital radio systems that cost many times more if you don't twist the facts to support your agenda.

Digital systems were designed for LARGE cities where dozens of departments can share the same system.

For business use they are not nearly as useful.

There are ALOT of uninformed people who think that ANYTHING digital is better than anything analog and that's simply a result of all the bad info online and advertising propaganda.

Hams are especially gullible to the misinformation and propaganda.

MOTEX said:

There is ALOT of misinformation out there on digital radios.

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There sure is a lot of misinformation out there.

MOTEX said:

digital transmissions are ALL or nothing.

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Very true. Either audio is recovered or its not.

MOTEX said:

Long after digital falls victim to the "cliff" effect, analog is still readable.

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And here comes the misinformation. In my experience, analogue is long unintelligible before digital falls of the cliff. This is from using LMR implemented DMR Trunk systems.

MOTEX said:

But you can't sell digital radio systems that cost many times more if you don't twist the facts to support your agenda.



Digital systems were designed for LARGE cities where dozens of departments can share the same system.



For business use they are not nearly as useful.



There are ALOT of uninformed people who think that ANYTHING digital is better than anything analog and that's simply a result of all the bad info online and advertising propaganda.



Hams are especially gullible to the misinformation and propaganda.

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Yup, lots of misinformation in your post.



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MOTEX said:

But you can't sell digital radio systems that cost many times more if you don't twist the facts to support your agenda.

Digital systems were designed for LARGE cities where dozens of departments can share the same system.

For business use they are not nearly as useful.

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I don't agree with you on these two items. It literally cost me less than $1000.00 more to go digital instead of analog. Mind you, I have a small system which consists of a couple dozen mobile and handheld TRBO series radios, an XPR 8400 and a 20 foot fiberglass antenna ( placed on an existing tower) and all the necessary parts, pieces and labor to install it and it cost roughly $17,000.00.

As far as digital not being useful for business use. I have found that it is more useful. I have no interference from any neighboring analog systems. I have no static in any of the transmissions, and I have two channels on one frequency. Those are just a couple benefits. There are more. However, I will agree that audio quality on digital leaves a little to be desired. But you get use to the digitized sounding voice.


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clbsquared said:

I don't agree with you on these two items. It literally cost me less than $1000.00 more to go digital instead of analog. Mind you, I have a small system which consists of a couple dozen mobile and handheld TRBO series radios, an XPR 8400 and a 20 foot fiberglass antenna ( placed on an existing tower) and all the necessary parts, pieces and labor to install it and it cost roughly $17,000.00.

As far as digital not being useful for business use. I have found that it is more useful. I have no interference from any neighboring analog systems. I have no static in any of the transmissions, and I have two channels on one frequency. Those are just a couple benefits. There are more. However, I will agree that audio quality on digital leaves a little to be desired. But you get use to the digitized sounding voice.


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Integrated location services, messaging features, task assignment...few things that can be done with digital solutions fairly easily. Most of my current customers love the fact they can monitor the locations of their trucks remotely (without an additional cellular subscription) and that they can send messages. Also, my cab customers also love the fact they can simulate a traditional split-base (and keep the cabbies from talking to one another) but retain the full repeater infrastructure and seamless multi-site roaming.

Personally, I think one of the big issues with trying to compare digtial to analog is that many people don't understand how audio quality is spec'd in the systems nor do they fully understand what 12 dB SINAD audio and 5% BER audio sound like. There's also the issue of digital doesn't just fall off a cliff...it degrades just like analog does but instead introducing noise to the audio you introduce packet error in the audio.

teward - be aware that DMR emission types vary from one mfg to the next, so you might have 4 or more codes just for digital / DMR.

teward said:

I'm more or less looking at the future here, as my business currently uses analog radios and are working with an FCC frequency coordinator to get frequency pair assignments. And forgive me with this sounding a little bit hypothetical in nature, but it really is.

I'm hearing more and more that digital radio technologies such as DMR or P25 or others are being seen as 'better' because the reception doesn't diminish until you're at the very end of the range of a broadcast. I have two DMR radios (both Part 90 certified) here in Analog mode because that's what most of the clients we work with use in their companies, and until frequencies are coordinated for my business to use on our radios when out on on-site work at a client's location, I'm more or less just thinking for the future and the potential of using a digital system instead.

I've see threads here discussing digital systems being better, such as DMR or P25 or even trunked digital systems. But I'm not as fluent in those technologies as I am the analog equivalent technologies. I'm also not finding any details on how a business might implement one of these digital systems.

So this is more or less me looking for knowledge for the future. I'm looking into the feasibility of, within the next couple years or so, possibly moving to digital instead of staying on analog. What type of technologies should I be looking at, and is there any documentation of how to implement such technologies in a primarily mobile-only setup (that is, we don't have a fixed repeater or antenna station, it's mobile repeater technologies in use with temporary fixed antennas and no actually fixed antennas).

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LMR has undergone an FCC mandate to narrowband to 12.5 KHZ channels. This change has resulted in analog systems losing a significant amount of coverage and voice fidelity. At sometime in the future the FCC will mandate 6.25 KHZ channels or its equivalency. This will further reduce the effective range of analog systems.

DMR and other digital modulation recaptures the signal margin lost in the narrowbanding process.

DMR provides the 6.25 KHz equivalency through time division multiple access (TDMA). Presently P25 does not provide this equivalency on conventional systems.

For a business, DMR in the 450 to 470 MHz UHF spectrum * will provide the best future migration. P25 is expensive and as odd as this might seem, has far less utility in a business application. The VHF band is useful, but only for short range simplex operations as it is difficult to license a duplex repeater pair in VHF.

If your business can ever benefit by having two channels, DMR will automatically provide two talk paths on a single repeater, so the cost of a second repeater and antenna system is eliminated. If you need to expand coverage, DMR repeaters can be linked by an IP infrastructure, providing wide area roaming coverage for both talk paths (actually DMR time slots), or one can be local and the other wide area.

(There is another digital technology called NXDN, but it requires a second repeater and antenna system for the second talk path, so more costly to deploy in that case.)

DMR can be used in Simplex as well as Repeater modes. A standard DMR repeater uses a duplex frequency pair and duplexer cavity just as an analog repeater would. You can easily build a small DMR repeater that is contained in a transportable case.

There is also a DMR mode that Hytera offers, which allows a mobile unit to behave as a single frequency repeater in that it will receive on one time slot and repeat on the other. This may be useful for on site communications.


DMR is a worldwide standard that is available from several vendors. There are some differences in the product options, however radios from any DMR vendor should talk to another. I would, however have some reservations mixing vendors in simplex modes and single frequency repeat modes as their could be in compatible features. I would also avoid some of the cheaper vendors that claim to offer DMR compatible radios because there have been complaints of time slot overlap interference due to weak design.

I hope this helps.

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* PS If you need to be interoperable with customers or suppliers, discuss freq band options with your coordinator. VHF might work for you, but most likely you will never be able to get a VHF duplex repeater pair.

Digital systems such as DMR have many advantages. I won't rehash the laundry list already posted.

Maximum effective range is similar, but analog will be hard to understand before digital quits working due to an excessively high bit error rate. This is particularly true when comparing 12.5KHz channel width on both digital and analog.

There is no need to coordinate radio or talkgroup IDs unless your radio system is connected to another system. If your users are only talking to each other, then you can use whatever numbering system you like for talkgroups and radio IDs.

The only time you might need to coordinate color codes is if there is another DMR system on the same frequency as yours that is receivable within your coverage area. If that is the case, you will want to make sure you aren't using the same color code as the neighboring system.

RFI-EMI-GUY said:

* PS If you need to be interoperable with customers or suppliers, discuss freq band options with your coordinator. VHF might work for you, but most likely you will never be able to get a VHF duplex repeater pair.

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I find it odd that you say licensing VHF frequencies for repeaters is difficult. I applied for and received a license for VHF duplex repeater use along with 6 additional simplex frequencies with no difficulties at all.


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