Somebody using my call G4RMT on digital modes

paulears · Oct 25, 2017

Just discovered somebody using my callsign here in the UK on the Phoenix network, mainly from the Birmingham area, working people worldwide. It makes no real difference to me of course, but as I have never worked a single person on any digital modes, because of geography, it's galling to see the person making contacts on the US side of the water, when I can't - if you did talk to G4RMT, then it wasn't me!
Paul

jonwienke · Oct 25, 2017

It happens all the time, on digital and analog. You are just less likely to notice if someone uses your callsign on an analog repeater that isn't tied in to a worldwide network.

N4GIX · Oct 25, 2017

It was most likely what happened to me a few weeks ago. While testing out a new code plug on one of my newest HTs, I was watching the netwatch display to see if the TG's I'd set up were connecting properly.

I kept trying for TAC310, but kept seeing my call sign popup on WW English! After a bit, I noticed my callsign popping up even when I wasn't keying up the HT...

After looking more closely, I noticed that it wasn't me at all. Some numbskull was using my DMR-Marc ID# on his darn SDR USB dongle! <grrr!>

Golay · Oct 27, 2017

Hang On Snoopy

N4GIX said:
It was most likely what happened to me a few weeks ago. While testing out a new code plug on one of my newest HTs, I was watching the netwatch display to see if the TG's I'd set up were connecting properly.

I kept trying for TAC310, but kept seeing my call sign popup on WW English! After a bit, I noticed my callsign popping up even when I wasn't keying up the HT...

After looking more closely, I noticed that it wasn't me at all. Some numbskull was using my DMR-Marc ID# on his darn SDR USB dongle! <grrr!>

Before you get too excited, find out if he/she is also using your call sign on the air. It's possible this is nothing more than a programming error. I've done it. Transposed two numbers when setting up my radio, and the wrong call sign was popping up on other's displays.

Jasphetamine · Oct 28, 2017

While looking at DMR registration I actually wanted to post asking how DMR IDs are secured. I was worried people would assume I was asking for nefarious reasons.

Is there a solution? Unless DMR can associate IDs with a hardware locked value I don't really have any ideas.

N4GIX · Oct 28, 2017

What, Me Worry? (A.E. Neuman)

Golay said:
Before you get too excited, find out if he/she is also using your call sign on the air. It's possible this is nothing more than a programming error. I've done it. Transposed two numbers when setting up my radio, and the wrong call sign was popping up on other's displays.

Oh, I didn't get "excited" at all, just annoyed at the time since it was interfering with my testing!

I have no doubt that it was unintentional and certainly not malicious. As it happens though, I've never seen that happen since. It was confined to just that one day.

paulears · Oct 28, 2017

To be honest, it's not secure, but it really doesn't matter that much. In my case somebody used my callsign, but also appears to have used my ID? It could be that they picked an ID at random, and backtraced it to my callsign, I really don't know, but I suspect that it may simply be a case of they picked a random ID, i.e. not mine at all, and just declared themselves as me in the repeater they used - I don't know if the database and callsigns get crosschecked, but probably not.

The reality is of course that for years, non-amateurs have used pirated callsigns and got away with it. Digital just leaves fingerprints that can make the pirating obvious. It doesn't bother me very much, apart from the sheer cheek of the person who did it - but now all the people he conned on his local repeater know his callsign is a pirated one, which is good enough for me.

teufler · Oct 28, 2017

I posted a question about you problem about a month ago. Seems there is nothing that can be done , at this time. Someone can just go into DmMarc and use id numbers at will. As long as they don't do anything that would comeback to you, you should be okey. I know it appears unfair that we have gone to the effort to study, pass tests and all, them somebody just bootlegs a call but we are BIG boys and we have to live with it. Not sure if , when routing a call through, the ip address is collected. At least this is tell the general area of the transmission.

Jasphetamine · Oct 28, 2017

teufler said:
I posted a question about you problem about a month ago. Seems there is nothing that can be done , at this time. Someone can just go into DmMarc and use id numbers at will. As long as they don't do anything that would comeback to you, you should be okey. I know it appears unfair that we have gone to the effort to study, pass tests and all, them somebody just bootlegs a call but we are BIG boys and we have to live with it. Not sure if , when routing a call through, the ip address is collected. At least this is tell the general area of the transmission.

Radios don't have IP addresses. Ideally a hardware locked S/N would be logged by repeaters but that'd be a hassle with Marcs policy allowing one ID on multiple devices.

It looks like you can have a second ID per callsign though. Methinks the best solution is to use that ID to yell at your doppleganger in a polite FCC compliant way.

jonwienke · Oct 28, 2017

Jasphetamine said:
Is there a solution? Unless DMR can associate IDs with a hardware locked value I don't really have any ideas.

There is, but it would require redesigning the DMR protocol to use RSA or similar cryptographic public key authentication protocol. Anything else can be hacked or fairly easily circumvented.

Jasphetamine · Oct 28, 2017

jonwienke said:
There is, but it would require redesigning the DMR protocol to use RSA or similar cryptographic public key authentication protocol. Anything else can be hacked or fairly easily circumvented.

Heh, since many people more comfortable with analogue gear found the learning curve for DMR to be far too gentle, the powers that be have decided to implement PGP keys as a means of controlling who can see what! :lol:

Since DMR inherently involves a unique radio, you'd just need DMR-compliant radio's to mandate firmware that surfaces a unique hardware-based ID and let DMR protocol poll that number. You can lock stuff down quite securely like this.

One solution we'd be likely to get is a good "neighborhood watch" system going. Auto-generate some passwords for each DMR account, which the user of that account can give to people he trusts. Then if that ID is active but isn't being used by their buddy, they can take the password to DMR-MARC or a piggyback site and punch them in, which would flag the ID# as "STOLEN." A master password would be required to unflag it, temporarily mask the user's data, and generate a new ID#.

Probably the best solution is to just rely on safety in numbers and if it does happen, :roll: Life goes on.

Jimru · Oct 29, 2017

To the OP, if the person were to continue to transmit with your call sign, does the U.K. have a diligent enforcement system in place were you to complain to them?

paulears · Oct 29, 2017

Nope. The amateur service is largely unprotected and the national society, that far from everyone belongs to, is tasked with the job of recording spectrum abuse, and passing it on to OFCOM. They are like most Government departments cash-strapped and concentrate effort on safety first, then business, then amateur, then licence exempt. Interference to emergency services gets acted on of course, and business a little. Occasionally a ham licence gets revoked, but usually because the hams have collected the evidence and provided it as a done deal, that just needs rubber stamping.

In my case, it was only because digital gets recorded that I noticed it. Analogue pirating seems quite safe, even though the UK is tiny compared to the US. Nowhere here is more than 100 miles from the sea!

jonwienke · Oct 29, 2017

Jasphetamine said:
Since DMR inherently involves a unique radio, you'd just need DMR-compliant radio's to mandate firmware that surfaces a unique hardware-based ID and let DMR protocol poll that number. You can lock stuff down quite securely like this.

The security of such a scheme is a complete illusion. There are too many radios out there that allow the programming of any ID number, and even in cell phones, it is relatively easy to clone a phone and spoof the phone's hardware ID with altered software. This problem has been studied for years, and the only way to truly solve it is with cryptography. Which also allows one to not be tied to a specific radio.

Jimru · Nov 10, 2017

paulears said:
Nope. The amateur service is largely unprotected and the national society, that far from everyone belongs to, is tasked with the job of recording spectrum abuse, and passing it on to OFCOM. They are like most Government departments cash-strapped and concentrate effort on safety first, then business, then amateur, then licence exempt. Interference to emergency services gets acted on of course, and business a little. Occasionally a ham licence gets revoked, but usually because the hams have collected the evidence and provided it as a done deal, that just needs rubber stamping.

In my case, it was only because digital gets recorded that I noticed it. Analogue pirating seems quite safe, even though the UK is tiny compared to the US. Nowhere here is more than 100 miles from the sea!

Well, I hope it was a fluke, but if not, let's hope the person pirating your call sign acts in an honorable manner, so as not to besmirch your reputation!

paulears · Nov 10, 2017

If he was a prolific DXer, then he might have worked more stations than I ever have - I could then claim his contacts as mine? Wouldn't it be funny if the pirate was better at it than me!

Jasphetamine · Nov 16, 2017

paulears said:
If he was a prolific DXer, then he might have worked more stations than I ever have - I could then claim his contacts as mine? Wouldn't it be funny if the pirate was better at it than me!

Im having nightmare visions of a pay-for-DX service startup.

Golay · Nov 17, 2017

Show me the callsign.

Jimru said:
To the OP, if the person were to continue to transmit with your call sign, does the U.K. have a diligent enforcement system in place were you to complain to them?

Perhaps I have been mistaken as to what the issue it.
I believe that paulears callsign is showing up on the DMR networks. Not that someone is using his callsign over the air.
Maybe I'm mistaken.

paulears · Nov 18, 2017

I think it just drifted into 'pirating' in general - and I just wondered if I could claim any credit for contacts I'd not done myself? If the person masquerading as me was actually very good and spread from digital portable into real DX collecting, would he be able to contradict me when I said I did them!

Jimru · Nov 20, 2017

Golay said:
Perhaps I have been mistaken as to what the issue it.

I believe that paulears callsign is showing up on the DMR networks. Not that someone is using his callsign over the air.

Maybe I'm mistaken.

Hmm. As in a typo?

Somebody using my call G4RMT on digital modes

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