Real name of MA P25; new purpose of TG 1185/4a1; RR vs ScanNE

masstech · Oct 26, 2017

Hi all - I continue to be confused.

The following names get thrown around, what's the official name of this system?
- BAPERN
- MSP
- UASI
- Metropolitan Area Simulcast System (MASS)

(all from this document: https://genesisworld.com/assets/uploads/PDF/press/caseStudy_Boston_012414.pdf)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Next: TG 1185 which used to be some always-on patch with HUPD has been silent for some time, but now it's new purpose is now evident. One of the secondary CPD Controls (RID 23319) called on this channel "Control calling Traffic 119", "Control calling Traffic 119 on the emergency channel".

Over the past few weeks, I've noticed that whenever a traffic unit goes into emergency mode (the nice big red button on their radios), that talkgroup gets alarmed and put into use.

Therefore, instead of "CPD Patch to HUPD", the new purpose is probably something like "CPD-EMER/CPD Emergency Channel".

Unsure if it's specifically for just traffic units, though.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last but not least: I can't help but notice there are two forums that have good information on the new system: radio reference here, where there isn't much discussion (but perhaps data from ScanNE is imported into here?) and ScanNE. Where would be a better/more appropriate place to discuss?

garys · Oct 26, 2017

There is no one name, because it's not one system. It's several different systems working together for interoperability.

BAPERN started out as a project in the early 1970s to get most of the PDs in the greater Boston area onto one band (UHF-T) with five designated inter agency channels. At the time, there were agencies on UHF, VHF HI, and VHF Lo. It's expanded in the years since to encompass most of eastern MA.

MSP is the Mass State Police. They own the Motorola Astro Core that controls the MSP, Cambridge, Worcester, MassPort trunk systems. The individual agencies own their hardware. The Talk Groups are coordinated so that in theory, any user can talk on any system if needed. It's a bit more complex than that, but that's the general idea.

I think the MASS is what we generally call the "700 Mhz Overlay" which is a P25 trunk system in Metro Boston that is shared by several agencies. It's owned by the Commonwealth of MA and managed by the MSP.

UASI is the Boston Urban Area Security Initiative. It encompasses Boston and several, but not all, of the contiguous cities and towns. The grants paid for upgrades in radio equipment to improve interop during a disaster in or around Boston. It paid for other none radio equipment as well.

Overall, I think you'll get a better discussion at Scan-NE only because there are some knowledgeable people there that don't come here often or at all.

ecps92 · Oct 26, 2017

BAPERN = Boston Area Police Emergency Radio Network
those a T-Band UHF Conventional Frequencies, altho could/are patched into the two [Analog and P25] State TRS Networks

UASI = Urban Area Security Inititative
Consortium of the 9 Cities/Towns of Boston and those that surround

MSP = Massachusetts State Police

MASS = be more specific, are you asking about the 700 Mhz Overlay ?

All of the above was Avalable via a simple GOOGLE SEARCH

1185 has nothing to do with Harvard Univ
it is the Cambridge PD Emergency Channel

masstech said:
Hi all - I continue to be confused.

The following names get thrown around, what's the official name of this system?
- BAPERN
- MSP
- UASI
- Metropolitan Area Simulcast System (MASS)

(all from this document: https://genesisworld.com/assets/uploads/PDF/press/caseStudy_Boston_012414.pdf)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Next: TG 1185 which used to be some always-on patch with HUPD has been silent for some time, but now it's new purpose is now evident. One of the secondary CPD Controls (RID 23319) called on this channel "Control calling Traffic 119", "Control calling Traffic 119 on the emergency channel".

Over the past few weeks, I've noticed that whenever a traffic unit goes into emergency mode (the nice big red button on their radios), that talkgroup gets alarmed and put into use.

Therefore, instead of "CPD Patch to HUPD", the new purpose is probably something like "CPD-EMER/CPD Emergency Channel".

Unsure if it's specifically for just traffic units, though.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last but not least: I can't help but notice there are two forums that have good information on the new system: radio reference here, where there isn't much discussion (but perhaps data from ScanNE is imported into here?) and ScanNE. Where would be a better/more appropriate place to discuss?

masstech · Oct 26, 2017

garys said:
There is no one name, because it's not one system. It's several different systems working together for interoperability.

Okay, this was the most helpful bit of information that clears everything up - thank you so much!

garys said:
BAPERN started out as a project in the early 1970s to get most of the PDs in the greater Boston area onto one band (UHF-T) with five designated inter agency channels. At the time, there were agencies on UHF, VHF HI, and VHF Lo. It's expanded in the years since to encompass most of eastern MA.

So sounds like BAPERN maintains their own repeaters (single site or multiple receive, and even transmit?) with patches with the MA interop P25 system.

garys said:
MSP is the Mass State Police. They own the Motorola Astro Core that controls the MSP, Cambridge, Worcester, MassPort trunk systems. The individual agencies own their hardware. The Talk Groups are coordinated so that in theory, any user can talk on any system if needed. It's a bit more complex than that, but that's the general idea.

Ah, so the multi-system as a whole, while not owned by one entity, is still inherently maintained and operated by MSP, with individual agencies supplying their own subscriber units and site equipment? Where can one learn more/read up on this intricate relationship?

garys said:
I think the MASS is what we generally call the "700 Mhz Overlay" which is a P25 trunk system in Metro Boston that is shared by several agencies. It's owned by the Commonwealth of MA and managed by the MSP.

So this is the most confusing bit. The document I linked says:

The MASS (Metropolitan Area Simulcast System) project took 2 single owner-operated 3 site 800 MHz analog simulcast systems and merged them into a single 6 site simulcast system. ... The key partnership between the City and the Commonwealth resulted in a shared system in just 6 months. The partnership formed the foundation for the deployment of a Metro Boston 700 MHz 8 site simulcast ASTRO® 25 P25 Phase 2 overlay.

Doesn't that mean the entire system as a whole is called "MASS"? And the overlay is a subset of, but not "MASS".

garys said:
UASI is the Boston Urban Area Security Initiative. It encompasses Boston and several, but not all, of the contiguous cities and towns. The grants paid for upgrades in radio equipment to improve interop during a disaster in or around Boston. It paid for other none radio equipment as well.

Ah so UASI is just an organizational entity comprised of interested parties that pump projects with money?

garys said:
Overall, I think you'll get a better discussion at Scan-NE only because there are some knowledgeable people there that don't come here often or at all.

Indeed, this seems to be the case. I may move over there and leave RR alone.

ecps92 said:
BAPERN = Boston Area Police Emergency Radio Network
those a T-Band UHF Conventional Frequencies, altho could/are patched into the two [Analog and P25] State TRS Networks

The Analog State TRS is the one operated by MSP? Is that still operating with the intention of eventually moving to the P25 TRS?

ecps92 said:
MASS = be more specific, are you asking about the 700 Mhz Overlay ?

Possibly, I've responded to garys above about my confusion here.

ecps92 said:
All of the above was Avalable via a simple GOOGLE SEARCH

I would know, how do you think I've found all these confusing and sometimes seemingly conflicting documents and information? :^)

ecps92 said:
1185 has nothing to do with Harvard Univ
it is the Cambridge PD Emergency Channel

Then https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?sid=7127 needs to be updated.

garys · Oct 26, 2017

masstech said:
Okay, this was the most helpful bit of information that clears everything up - thank you so much!

You're welcome.

So sounds like BAPERN maintains their own repeaters (single site or multiple receive, and even transmit?) with patches with the MA interop P25 system.

Each town is responsible for maintaining their own systems. As I recall, they all pay into BAPERN to maintain the regional channels. The structure has changed over the years, but that's how it used to be.

Ah, so the multi-system as a whole, while not owned by one entity, is still inherently maintained and operated by MSP, with individual agencies supplying their own subscriber units and site equipment? Where can one learn more/read up on this intricate relationship?

Pretty much. It's a confusing set up in some ways and the RRDB does not do a great job describing it. Look at the Scan-NE Wiki and it will give a better explanation, but still not perfect.

So this is the most confusing bit. The document I linked says:

Doesn't that mean the entire system as a whole is called "MASS"? And the overlay is a subset of, but not "MASS".

I've never heard of it referred to that way, so I can't really answer that.

Ah so UASI is just an organizational entity comprised of interested parties that pump projects with money?

UASI is a federal program, probably through DHS, that awards grants to regional systems. The key word is interoperability. There is a similar system in Charlotte, NC.

The Analog State TRS is the one operated by MSP? Is that still operating with the intention of eventually moving to the P25 TRS?

MSP operates the analog system, the P25 system in western MA, and the 700 Mhz Overlay. I think technically it's called the Comm. of MA trunking system. In addition to the MSP, there are a number of other agencies that operate on that system. Again, take a look at Scan-NE.

Feel free to move the discussion to Scan-NE. Also feel free to PM me here or there. Same user name both places.

ecps92 · Oct 27, 2017

Sadly, conflicting information regularly get's posted
This is due to this being a Hobby and each person brings a different monitoring perspective
and reading of what they are hearing. Some folks have inside info, some don't and as a hobby many of the name, naming conventions are assumptions based on long term [even some short term] listening.

Keep listening to it, [as I'm not regularly in that area to monitor] and if your more confident of the name change, make the submission to correct it, via the top of that page [Submit]

IT is also likely someone [typo] confused TG's 1185 and 1195

masstech said:
Then https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?sid=7127 needs to be updated.

RKG · Oct 27, 2017

Well, here's a bit more information, which will either clear up or add to the confusion.

At one time, we had a Metropolitan District Commission Police Department. The MDC was created to own and operate drinking water facilities serving a large part of eastern Massachusetts, and MDC PD patrolled MDC properties, having full State Police powers in all areas of any city or town in which any MDC property was located.

MDC PD operated a very high power low band repeated system, which was regularly monitored by scanner buffs in Kentucky.

In or about 1988, the MDC PD switched to a Motorola 800 mHz SmartNet (later SmartZone) analog 3600 baud trunked system.

A bit later, the MDC PD (plus three other agency-based PDs) were "consolidated" into the State Police.

More or less as a result of that, the MSP inherited the MDC PD trunked system and then expanded it to replace the State Police 7 channel conventional, analog, simplex system theretofore used by the State Police.

Technically, the State Police is not the licensee of that system, since the State Police is an unincorporated agency of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. So the system was and is, technically, the Commonwealth of Massachusetts trunked system. That said, the State Police managed, expanded and controlled the system as if they owned it, and availability of the system to non-State Police entities was limited (and the subject of conversations from time to time).

Today, the Commonwealth of Massachusetts trunked radio system consists of zones on the pre-existing 3600 baud analog system, plus zones operated as Phase I 9600 baud IMBE, one both 800 mHz and 700 mHz channels. As noted, the previously separate 3600 baud systems operated by the City of Cambridge, the City of Boston, and Logan Airport have been merged into 9600 baud zones on the Massachusetts system. Day to day administration of the system is largely implemented by facilities and personnel attached to the State Police, but ultimately decisions are made at the Commonwealth level. Availability of the system to non-State Police state agencies, and to a lesser extent, local municipal agencies or private civilian entities, is much broader.

All taken together, however, it is one "system," operating under System ID 0D14.

garys · Oct 27, 2017

WHAT?! You don't want to talk about how the water and sewer functions of the MDC were transferred to the MWRA? Or how it was that massive project that resulted in the building of the original 800 trunk system?

As I recall, the MDC Police were originally going to move to four of the BAPERN UHF-T channels, but with the building of the MWRA radio system, they moved there instead.

I used to love the MDC low band system, even before it was repeated. Ahh the good old days. Not only could that be heard in half the country, systems operating on 39.66 could get into the non PL repeater and be heard up here.

On a slightly more serious note, my impression is that the radio techs from the various systems know and work with each other. Their bosses, maybe not as much.

RKG said:
Well, here's a bit more information, which will either clear up or add to the confusion.

At one time, we had a Metropolitan District Commission Police Department. The MDC was created to own and operate drinking water facilities serving a large part of eastern Massachusetts, and MDC PD patrolled MDC properties, having full State Police powers in all areas of any city or town in which any MDC property was located.

MDC PD operated a very high power low band repeated system, which was regularly monitored by scanner buffs in Kentucky.

In or about 1988, the MDC PD switched to a Motorola 800 mHz SmartNet (later SmartZone) analog 3600 baud trunked system.

A bit later, the MDC PD (plus three other agency-based PDs) were "consolidated" into the State Police.

More or less as a result of that, the MSP inherited the MDC PD trunked system and then expanded it to replace the State Police 7 channel conventional, analog, simplex system theretofore used by the State Police.

Technically, the State Police is not the licensee of that system, since the State Police is an unincorporated agency of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. So the system was and is, technically, the Commonwealth of Massachusetts trunked system. That said, the State Police managed, expanded and controlled the system as if they owned it, and availability of the system to non-State Police entities was limited (and the subject of conversations from time to time).

Today, the Commonwealth of Massachusetts trunked radio system consists of zones on the pre-existing 3600 baud analog system, plus zones operated as Phase I 9600 baud IMBE, one both 800 mHz and 700 mHz channels. As noted, the previously separate 3600 baud systems operated by the City of Cambridge, the City of Boston, and Logan Airport have been merged into 9600 baud zones on the Massachusetts system. Day to day administration of the system is largely implemented by facilities and personnel attached to the State Police, but ultimately decisions are made at the Commonwealth level. Availability of the system to non-State Police state agencies, and to a lesser extent, local municipal agencies or private civilian entities, is much broader.

All taken together, however, it is one "system," operating under System ID 0D14.

RKG · Oct 29, 2017

garys said:
. . . .

On a slightly more serious note, my impression is that the radio techs from the various systems know and work with each other. Their bosses, maybe not as much.

The first part is certainly true, and a wonderful thing. As for the second part, I don't have a reliable opinion, but my sense is that things are much better today than once they were (or were perceived to be).

jmorrissey23 · Oct 30, 2017

masstech said:
Hi all - I continue to be confused.

The following names get thrown around, what's the official name of this system?
- BAPERN
- MSP
- UASI
- Metropolitan Area Simulcast System (MASS)

(all from this document: https://genesisworld.com/assets/uploads/PDF/press/caseStudy_Boston_012414.pdf)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Next: TG 1185 which used to be some always-on patch with HUPD has been silent for some time, but now it's new purpose is now evident. One of the secondary CPD Controls (RID 23319) called on this channel "Control calling Traffic 119", "Control calling Traffic 119 on the emergency channel".

Over the past few weeks, I've noticed that whenever a traffic unit goes into emergency mode (the nice big red button on their radios), that talkgroup gets alarmed and put into use.

Therefore, instead of "CPD Patch to HUPD", the new purpose is probably something like "CPD-EMER/CPD Emergency Channel".

Unsure if it's specifically for just traffic units, though.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last but not least: I can't help but notice there are two forums that have good information on the new system: radio reference here, where there isn't much discussion (but perhaps data from ScanNE is imported into here?) and ScanNE. Where would be a better/more appropriate place to discuss?

The ScanNE wiki is correct for those talkgroups, I believe that the radio reference database just has a typo in it. As the correct names are...

1185 Cambridge Emergency
1195 HUPD Patch (This appears to only activate on affiliation)

coolrich55 · Nov 11, 2017

That's some pretty cool insight to the current msp trunked system. Wasn't the state pd on low band up to around the year 2000 or so? It's kinda amazing to hear about the beginning of trunked systems. Especially in 1988. Wow at least in CT that was unheard of. I believe it was 2003 when the CSP went all in and switched to digital trunked. My first experience with a trunked system is when I went to Daytona in 2001. Needless to say I tried to monitor the d with a regular scanner and it was pretty interesting.

garys · Nov 11, 2017

MSP started moving operations over to the 800 trunk in the mid 1990s, after the merger of the MDC police (along with two others) into the MSP. They still use the low band system, but for the most part not for dispatch. Most MSP cruisers have both a low band and a trunk radio in them.

CSP put their first digital trunk system on line in the late 1980s, as I recall. It was some years after that that the first trunk scanners came out and even more years before a trunk scanner that could process digital audio came out.

coolrich55 said:
That's some pretty cool insight to the current msp trunked system. Wasn't the state pd on low band up to around the year 2000 or so? It's kinda amazing to hear about the beginning of trunked systems. Especially in 1988. Wow at least in CT that was unheard of. I believe it was 2003 when the CSP went all in and switched to digital trunked. My first experience with a trunked system is when I went to Daytona in 2001. Needless to say I tried to monitor the d with a regular scanner and it was pretty interesting.

ecps92 · Nov 12, 2017

Yup, Low Band is still Alive, been waiting for a 42.44 band openning from PR
MSP put in for an STA for 800 and Low Band for the Mutual Aid to PR for the Hurricane

garys said:
MSP started moving operations over to the 800 trunk in the mid 1990s, after the merger of the MDC police (along with two others) into the MSP. They still use the low band system, but for the most part not for dispatch. Most MSP cruisers have both a low band and a trunk radio in them.

CSP put their first digital trunk system on line in the late 1980s, as I recall. It was some years after that that the first trunk scanners came out and even more years before a trunk scanner that could process digital audio came out.

coolrich55 · Nov 12, 2017

garys said:
MSP started moving operations over to the 800 trunk in the mid 1990s, after the merger of the MDC police (along with two others) into the MSP. They still use the low band system, but for the most part not for dispatch. Most MSP cruisers have both a low band and a trunk radio in them.

CSP put their first digital trunk system on line in the late 1980s, as I recall. It was some years after that that the first trunk scanners came out and even more years before a trunk scanner that could process digital audio came out.

I'm going to have to disagree about when the CSP moved to the digital trunk. I remember that they were still on 42.xx on 9-11-01. I'm pretty sure they switched around 2003 or so.

garys · Nov 12, 2017

You may be correct. It's possible that my recollection is inaccurate. It wouldn't be the first time. Actually, it wouldn't be the first time today. :wink:

Maybe someone else knows the answer.

coolrich55 said:
I'm going to have to disagree about when the CSP moved to the digital trunk. I remember that they were still on 42.xx on 9-11-01. I'm pretty sure they switched around 2003 or so.

cg · Nov 13, 2017

Contract for the CSP trunked system was signed in 1999, system may have been online by 2001 but If I recall, they did simulcast the dispatch for a while. I have a couple emails still kicking around talking about the TGIDs in 2003
All the low band licenses are still maintained but I doubt there are any vehicles outside of a CP vehicle with a low band radio.
The CT SW 700 is what the system will migrate over to and the 3 year project for that should have it online by 2018 or early 2019.

chris

garys · Nov 13, 2017

Thanks, Chris.

cg said:
Contract for the CSP trunked system was signed in 1999, system may have been online by 2001 but If I recall, they did simulcast the dispatch for a while. I have a couple emails still kicking around talking about the TGIDs in 2003
All the low band licenses are still maintained but I doubt there are any vehicles outside of a CP vehicle with a low band radio.
The CT SW 700 is what the system will migrate over to and the 3 year project for that should have it online by 2018 or early 2019.

chris

Real name of MA P25; new purpose of TG 1185/4a1; RR vs ScanNE

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