Another interop boondoggle?

Read this first:

https://www.firstnet.gov/news/georgia-transform-communications-public-safety

Then read this:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazin...illion-network-thats-already-obsolete/492764/

Same old rhetoric that we've heard for years?

Boondoggle, maybe, just about anything the government does can be considered a boondoggle.

As for the Atlantic article, there are so many inaccuracies, misunderstandings, and just downright cluelessness by the author, I'm not ever sure where to start. The article appears to be written for the sole purpose of being inflammatory.

-FirstNet is not designed to replace public safety users two way radios. It will eventually allow Push To Talk type service, but that is not it's initial goal.
-FirstNet is designed to be a wireless data network to allow public safety access to up to date information, databases, etc. Think: live stream on scene video. Access to building blue prints for fire fighters. Ability for EMS to send live medical telemetry to the ER. And probably 100 other uses.
-The part where the author talks about "Can't my iPhone already do that?" misses the entire point of FirstNet.

It's written more like an opinion piece than anything else. Unfortunately, people who read that won't have any the knowledge about what FirstNet really is, what problems it's really solving, and what it will allow first responders to do.

The proof is in the pudding as a saying goes. We haven't seen the first system come on line yet.

My gut feeling from way back in day one that this whole new project has done nothing yet except provide a fat paycheck to those in the management of the project.

Not one piece of equipment has been brought out to display to anyone that it even exists. At this point in time we should have already had something out on display and even shown that it works.

My personal view point so far is we have been shown a bunch of verbiage, seen a whole lot of money been allocated to the project. But in the meantime, the best description is "VAPOR WARE". These boys had better start showing some hardware soon.

I think Alabama is using FirstNet. Even though the state line is about a mile and a half away, I seldom listen to anything over there. I think it's encrypted, anyway.

Perhaps someone can provide some reasonable "real life" examples where it was said "if only we could..." during actual incidents that FirstNet is supposed to provide/solve....

As for building layouts and such, my experience has been in terms of using fire attack pre-plans that were usually created by day-to-day field personnel that weren't always all that great and rarely kept current. For these and other reasons, they were rarely used.

I can see it later: "it wasn't the system that failed, it was the lack of or poor data that jurisdictions put into the system".

In my state we have large events (races, fairs, concerts) that occur in rural areas with limited cell capacity. Having priority over the thousands of regular customers for our command vehicles is, in itself, a huge benefit.

jim202 said:

Not one piece of equipment has been brought out to display to anyone that it even exists. At this point in time we should have already had something out on display and even shown that it works.

Click to expand...

Actually, it has.
For a few years now LTE Band 14 handsets have been available. I've held them in my hand, and you can purchase Band 14 capable handsets. FirstNet has been rolled out in a few places as testbeds. The technology is proven because it already exists. All they are doing as part of FirstNet is to roll out the Band 14 segment of 700MHz dedicated for public safety users.

I think this is the issue. There's nonsensical articles like the one from the Atlantic that give the public a false impression.

KK4JUG said:

I think Alabama is using FirstNet. Even though the state line is about a mile and a half away, I seldom listen to anything over there. I think it's encrypted, anyway.

Click to expand...

It's LTE waveform. Nothing you are going to be able to monitor. And it is encrypted.

troymail said:

Perhaps someone can provide some reasonable "real life" examples where it was said "if only we could..." during actual incidents that FirstNet is supposed to provide/solve....

Click to expand...

Every officer we have carries a smartphone so they can handle some things discretely. Text messages, files, photos, etc. can all be sent to an officer in the field.
In the vehicles, they are using computer aided dispatch that gives them the ability to run plates, do lookups, pull up court dates, records, previous info, etc. They are currently using a cellular modem that runs LTE (as well as 4G) over the consumer AT&T network. AT&T currently doesn't have preemtion on their consumer network, so the officers have to fight for bandwidth with everyone else. All FirstNet will be adding is a dedicated band (Band 14 in the 700MHz spectrum) that will be dedicated for public safety users.

troymail said:

As for building layouts and such, my experience has been in terms of using fire attack pre-plans that were usually created by day-to-day field personnel that weren't always all that great and rarely kept current. For these and other reasons, they were rarely used.

Click to expand...

Yep, and maybe that isn't the greatest example. Unlikely we'll see fire fighters holding a mobile device in one hand and a nozzle in the other. But very likely we'll see the on scene command using a laptop to track assets, etc. Similar to what they do now.

troymail said:

I can see it later: "it wasn't the system that failed, it was the lack of or poor data that jurisdictions put into the system".

Click to expand...

And that will always be the case, no matter what technology is used.

jim202 said:

My personal view point so far is we have been shown a bunch of verbiage, seen a whole lot of money been allocated to the project. But in the meantime, the best description is "VAPOR WARE". These boys had better start showing some hardware soon.

Click to expand...

Front cover of the August 2017 issue of Mission Critical Communications magazine is "Band 14 LTE in Houston". It was used during Super Bowl LI.
"Nearly 1000 public-safety personnel across 10 local, state and federal agencies, including 250 to 400 daily active users were trained on the apps. Messaging, picture/video sharing and filed reporting were the primary uses. Law-enforcement users included undercover, security supervisors, special event events and specialized units. Fire and EMS users included medics, hazardous materials (HAZMAT) and special events."

Houston is just one of 5 "early builder" projects, and has been running it for several years.

mmckenna said:

Yep, and maybe that isn't the greatest example. Unlikely we'll see fire fighters holding a mobile device in one hand and a nozzle in the other. But very likely we'll see the on scene command using a laptop to track assets, etc. Similar to what they do now.

Click to expand...

We need to think beyond what is available now. Personnel and equipment tracking on scene is a definite option. More futuristic, LTE helmets with heads up displays of commercial floorplans or other info. Instant streaming video from an interior attack crew to the IC, etc, etc

Right now, some airpack manufacturers have options that allow basic remote SCBA air management (tracking, evac alerts, etc). MSA's current system operates in the 900MHz range. This sort of stuff, and more, could be enhanced via FirstNet. Time will tell, I suppose.

Georgia makes the RIGHT decision

mmckenna said:

I think this is the issue. There's nonsensical articles like the one from the Atlantic that give the public a false impression.

Click to expand...

For the first time in years, our state makes a good decision. Why not opt-in versus continuing to be the separatists we historically have been?

In the metro Atlanta area alone, there are 14 disparate, separately run trunked radio systems. We've been playing the game of running expensive (close to $1.3 million dollars a year at my agency alone) to operate P-25 systems. We continue to throw money at $7000 portable radios that, while they work well, are based on an aging technology and network model that is well past it's zenith.

We have seen how even consumer adoption of LTE and simple PTT over cellular apps such as Zello proved a valuable, interoperable resource during Irma. I heard it myself. Sure, network operators have their work cut out for them keeping their systems online during disasters, but so do we in public safety communications.

I hear Houston lost one of it's prime sites during Irma. A centralized core design is a recipe for failure. FirstNET can and will be a game changer as it offers redundancy, and the ability for handsets to fallback to commercial carriers if needed.

Can't do that with a standalone P-25 trunking radio. Companies like Harris are rolling out converged subscribers because they know that 10 years from now, the scene will be much different.

I welcome it. Forward thinking Georgia. It's long been time for these prudent decisions to be made.

HM1529 said:

We need to think beyond what is available now. Personnel and equipment tracking on scene is a definite option. More futuristic, LTE helmets with heads up displays of commercial floorplans or other info. Instant streaming video from an interior attack crew to the IC, etc, etc

Right now, some airpack manufacturers have options that allow basic remote SCBA air management (tracking, evac alerts, etc). MSA's current system operates in the 900MHz range. This sort of stuff, and more, could be enhanced via FirstNet. Time will tell, I suppose.

Click to expand...

Very true! Think about what we do on the CAD side of the house. I am currently implementing an advanced CAD/RMS system at my agency. One of the features in addition to advanced map layers (including Google maps, sex offender registries, etc) are premise alerts based on location. For fire and EMS, this means they get access to floor plans from say, a tax commissioners' master file. They'll know where the bedrooms are. IC can relay this to who's working the structure.

All of this relies on a "for real" LTE system that isn't bogged down with teenagers live streaming on Facebook. It's not just voice anymore. Having a robust, purpose built network for public safety makes sense. The public expects us to be ahead of the curve technology wise, when we are lagging behind.

While John Oliver can be sarcastically funny, this video does drive home some of the realities of our business that need to be addressed. First Net IS a step in the right direction if managed well.

MTS2000des said:

For the first time in years, our state makes a good decision. Why not opt-in versus continuing to be the separatists we historically have been?

Click to expand...

I do believe the way the law was written that states/territories are required to either opt-in to FirstNet, or build their own compatible system.
I think at last count, 30 states/territories had "opted-in". There are a few states, including California, who have put out an RFP to possibly build their own.

None the less, a compatible system will be built in each state/territory and it all is required to be interoperable.

mmckenna said:

I do believe the way the law was written that states/territories are required to either opt-in to FirstNet, or build their own compatible system.
I think at last count, 30 states/territories had "opted-in". There are a few states, including California, who have put out an RFP to possibly build their own.

None the less, a compatible system will be built in each state/territory and it all is required to be interoperable.

Click to expand...

It's up to 33 opt-in...but that is correct. FirstNet will be in every state and territory...either built by AT&T for FirstNet, or built by the State and completely compatible (if your plan isn't compatible, it won't be approved by the FCC and FirstNet and you'll get the national network instead). Most governors have until Dec 28 to make their decision (3 pacific territories have a little longer).

But that still only means the technology will be interoperable/compatible. The app layer and the human layer still needs to interoperate.

LMR/analog/P25 voice isn't going away overnight (if ever?). The scanner that works today will still work on Dec 29th.

Thunderknight said:

LMR/analog/P25 voice isn't going away overnight (if ever?). The scanner that works today will still work on Dec 29th.

Click to expand...

Yeah, but it's still important for the scanner hobbyists to have something to get worked up about. I doubt this is the last we'll hear of this subject. Based off the misinformation, I feel we'll be shooting down rumors and misinformation for quite a while.

Anyone who believes that FirstNet and other "public safety broadband" is about replacing the voice communications we first responders use today doesn't have an understanding of what PSB is to be used for.

Skimming through this thread, I see people saying 'yeah, but what does [it] do that we've been saying 'I wish we could have ___' about in the past?'. Don't get caught in that mindset. Some of the benefits are things you'd never have thought possible in the past. One of the demos I saw a number of years ago (5-7 IIRC) - admittedly not FirstNet but the equivalent in western Canada - involved getting a video clip from a convenience store surveillance camera, of the bad guy, sent to the MDT and smartphones of the responding police cruisers. Yes, there would have to be a number of things line up right for that to work - the store's surveillance system would have to be able to get a clip out to the police dispatch center, is the big one - but the role of PSB in that situation is to provide a conduit for the large amounts of data that can be shared to the field crews (and vice versa - imagine attaching a video-recorded witness statement or 360° size-up of a burning structure to the event record). Other uses, as has been said above, might include preplans/floor plans, inspection records or premise history; carrying MDT data (that is currently on either owned radio channels or public mobile phone/cellular networks); even downlinks from video feeds, either to the on-scene command post or to the boardroom in headquarters for the honchos to keep watch over the situation.

PSB is just a big pipe that is dedicated to us public safety users only, for the purposes of moving data that we may or may not have wanted to move previously.

In the future, we might use a little bit of that dedicated-to-us pipe to move our voice comms across, rather than using public airwaves. But there are very few that are using it for that purpose today.

Jay911 said:

Anyone who believes that FirstNet and other "public safety broadband" is about replacing the voice communications we first responders use today doesn't have an understanding of what PSB is to be used for.

Click to expand...

You're missing the point. In the near future, LMR, which is albeit sound, but dated and limited purpose built technology, will become too costly to keep around on the current scale while broadband based replacements are currently proving to be more cost effective.

My county paid close to $30 million bucks for a P-25 phase 2 system with 15 simulcast sites for 8db in-building coverage, and 1.3 million a year to maintain for the next 9 years.

Does it make financial sense to keep dumping millions into a network that is limited to a single purpose (narrowband voice with very limited data) when the same funds could go to broadband solution that would allow us to eliminate having separately funded mobile broadband on commercial carriers and have one bill to pay that covers everything?

No, we won't scrap our LMR system anytime soon because we're married to a vendor and committed to supporting it for our users but it would be foolish to suggest that 10-15 years from now we should replace it with another LMR system that costs so much to procure, implement and maintain, when the state of broadband technology for public safety should have proven itself a viable replacement in that time and thus, will save us money and is 10 times better than what we have today.