Need more than 500 TGs per system

Status
Not open for further replies.

BCasto

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
351
Location
Morrisville NC
Here in the Raleigh Durham area of NC there are digital P25 trunked systems with more than 500 Talk Groups. Will this 500 TG limit be removed soon? Besides duplicating the systems and splitting the TGs, are there any other nifty ideas on how to scan 500+ TG systems?
 

troymail

Silent Key
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
9,981
Location
Supply (Lockwood Inlet area), NC
Here in the Raleigh Durham area of NC there are digital P25 trunked systems with more than 500 Talk Groups. Will this 500 TG limit be removed soon? Besides duplicating the systems and splitting the TGs, are there any other nifty ideas on how to scan 500+ TG systems?

Which model radio? As far as I know, the latest radios (Uniden and Whistler) don't have that limitation. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the "upgraded" older models (996P2, 325P2, etc.) have limitations like this due to memory limits.
 

troymail

Silent Key
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
9,981
Location
Supply (Lockwood Inlet area), NC
I have multiple BCD996P2 scanners.

You're probably facing memory limitations in that model... there are several reasons why those older models are lower cost...

Although not the same, even the "flagship" Uniden x36 models have limitations regarding in how much can be in a single favorites list (1 Mb). They do allow import of multiple entire large systems - including the 2,500+ set of talkgroups for NC VIPER - and beyond.

Why in the world would you need to listen to 500+ TGs? Mike

Remember - you aren't "listening" to 500+ talkgroups -- you are monitoring a system and might see/hear those talkgroups.

There are lots of reasons -- a few:

1. when occasional "unusual" talkgroups appear in your area - nice to know what it is rather than having to go look it up on a computer

2. when you are running in search mode looking for new talkgroups - if you don't program them all, you'll end up with a whole lot of false alarms (things that are already in the database)

3. mobile/roaming on large statewide or regional (or even some county) systems....

I'll stop here.

EDIT: User's manual says:

You can store up to 20 ‘Groups’ per ‘System’ with up to 1000 frequencies or 500 IDs in each
‘Group’. You can have 1000 total channels per conventional system and up to 256 ‘Sites’ if
you have enough memory. You can have a maximum of 500 Systems, 1000 Sites, and 25,000
Channels.​

I suppose they could change things - but it could also be a performance issue on these models if the "system" becomes too large.
 
Last edited:

BCasto

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
351
Location
Morrisville NC
Thanks Troymail....

I do like the BCD996P2 and understand it limits as you have highlighted them. I even have older BCD996XT and BDC996T models. Shoot, my old BC780XLT is great for airport monitoring. As you also noted, when scanning NC Viper or even the Wake County Simulcast systems, I would like to know what TG I am listening to when it pops up. I don't have all the TGs loaded but the ones I think important to include total over 500.

Should I be moving to the newer 536HP and 436HP models? They have nifty features but are darned expensive. Do they come with the DMR and Provoice capability native or do I have to pay to upgrade them like I do the 996P2?

Can I natively program the HP models or do I have to use the automated zip code set up? Is the operation very different and will there be a steep learning curve? Thanks..
 

troymail

Silent Key
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
9,981
Location
Supply (Lockwood Inlet area), NC
Thanks Troymail....

I do like the BCD996P2 and understand it limits as you have highlighted them. I even have older BCD996XT and BDC996T models. Shoot, my old BC780XLT is great for airport monitoring. As you also noted, when scanning NC Viper or even the Wake County Simulcast systems, I would like to know what TG I am listening to when it pops up. I don't have all the TGs loaded but the ones I think important to include total over 500.

Should I be moving to the newer 536HP and 436HP models?
Always a personal decision.... just have to do your homework
They have nifty features but are darned expensive.
Yup - I still see people buying analog scanners because they are lower cost but then they find out they don't meet their needs.
Do they come with the DMR and Provoice capability native or do I have to pay to upgrade them like I do the 996P2?
DMR and ProVoice are paid upgrades on the x36 models... I wouldn't bother unless you find specific systems you want to monitor that require either one. I bought ProVoice out of curiousity and I had a couple of systems a few hours from my house in Maryland that used ProVoice -- both are in the process of switching to P25. If I recall correctly, the last ProVoice in your area would have been Johnston County and they are now P25 Phase 2 (if I recall without looking). Of the EDACS systems remaining in NC, I don't see any ProVoice in use (and you'll see less and less going forward).

DMR (and NXDN for that matter) have their own limits. Mostly business systems. However, I am starting to see more jurisdictions in smaller areas "buck the trend' and go this way for public safety rather than the more expensive P25 systems.
Can I natively program the HP models or do I have to use the automated zip code set up?
You can do your own programming or use the libraries and locational settings.
Is the operation very different and will there be a steep learning curve? Thanks..
There is a learning curve with everything that is new. Since you've already been using other radios and already have a sense of how modern systems work, learning the differences and nuances of any others shouldn't be too difficult.
 
Last edited:

phask

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
3,670
Location
KZZV - SE Ohio
Why in the world would you need to listen to 500+ TGs? Mike

Very easy to exceed with statewide systems. I have several 996 style and must break them into several systems. I'm in a very rural setting, but also track Unit ID's. Unit ID's count as well as TG. Currently, have around 350 UID's and do not even bother with many systems.

I do not monitor any of the Highway Maint. stuff, just fire, ems, etc. But I do track the local Sheriff and Fire UID - that alone is around 200 UID. On a 536 - piece of cake. On a 996, I pare it down, but still, need to have 2 systems for the State Highway Patrol and separate for local Fire Ems Sheriff and few UID's.

These statewide systems seem to have a TG for every podunk transmitter :).
 

troymail

Silent Key
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
9,981
Location
Supply (Lockwood Inlet area), NC
These statewide systems seem to have a TG for every podunk transmitter :).
Ain't that the truth --

Each jurisdiction seems to be allowed in many cases to determine a set of talkgroups they need (or think they might need). It's almost like someone told them at the start "it's free the first time but if you try to make changes later, it'll cost ya!" so they overthought it. On the other hand, if they didn't think much about it, it could put them in a bind later.
 

jonwienke

More Info Coming Soon!
Joined
Jul 18, 2014
Messages
13,416
Location
VA
Thanks Troymail....

Should I be moving to the newer 536HP and 436HP models? They have nifty features but are darned expensive. Do they come with the DMR and Provoice capability native or do I have to pay to upgrade them like I do the 996P2?

Can I natively program the HP models or do I have to use the automated zip code set up? Is the operation very different and will there be a steep learning curve? Thanks..

Yes to both. They are far better at handling large statewide trunked systems, and you can scan directly from the database using GPS or zip code location, or make your own favorite lists from scratch.
 

troymail

Silent Key
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
9,981
Location
Supply (Lockwood Inlet area), NC
Yes to both. They are far better at handling large statewide trunked systems, and you can scan directly from the database using GPS or zip code location, or make your own favorite lists from scratch.

Thanks for repeating...

It really comes down to your needs -- you have very capable and fairly new 996P2 radios already -- I'm not sure I'd toss them just because of a 500 talkgroup limit.... Unless I had unlimited funds (or a very gracious donor willing to give them to me), I'd find a way to make what I have already work (seems like you have except for this limitation). There will always be something new... chasing them will bankrupt you. If anything, if you can, given the current investment you've made, I'd wait for Uniden to announce their next radio.... it is bound to be coming. If I recall, the 436 and 536 were announced more than 4 years ago and released a couple of months later.
 
Last edited:

devicelab

Whacker Extraordinaire
Joined
Jul 18, 2016
Messages
1,524
Location
Nowhere in WA
Is the operation very different and will there be a steep learning curve?

Very steep. Think Mt Everest steep. Don't waste your money on the 436/536 series. Wait for the next generation.

And you're very right -- way too expensive.
 

marksmith

Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2007
Messages
4,331
Location
Anne Arundel County, MD
Keep in mind the 996/396 radios were created when there was no 500 talkgroup system in existence.

They also were not capable of Radio ID, as this was a later firmware update in the XT models, and also consumes one of those 500 records now.

Overall memory size is not the issue. It is the memory allocated to each system. Even with only one system in the radio using 3% of total memory, you run out of memory per system.

As to when this might increase in the 396/996 or 325p2/996 p2 the answer is probably never. In order to provide the radio inexpensively, the original xt architecture is being used. It's around 10-15 years old, and you can't update it that significantly without significant cost.

The XT models, on which the 325/996 p2 models are based, have now been discontinued. They don't update discontinued radios. No money in that.

The 396xt and 996xt are terrific radios. They are bulletproof. They have extended these radios in an inexpensive way by adding Phase 2 to a 10+ year old radio architecture. They are still a terrific radio, they just suffer this one significant issue.

Mark
536/436/ws1095/996p2/996xt/325p2/396xt/psr800/396t/HP-1/HP-2 & others
 

ofd8001

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Feb 6, 2004
Messages
7,891
Location
Louisville, KY
Prior to the 536 I was using the x96 series on trips. To over come the 500 TG limit for each system, I would break those large statewide systems down into regions. They would still have the same system quick key and the GPS device would turn sites on and off according to my location. A little bit of programming work, but do-able.

A similar thing can be done for a local system with more than 500 talkgroups. It isn't efficient because you "scan" the same site twice.
 

marksmith

Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2007
Messages
4,331
Location
Anne Arundel County, MD
I have one system broken down in 3 parts also, and if using a gps, it gives you even more options.

Still great radios, and the limit will never be changed, but workarounds exist and do well.

Mark
536/436/ws1095/996p2/996xt/325p2/396xt/psr800/396t/HP-1/HP-2 & others
 

dave3825

* * * * * * * * * * * *
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Feb 17, 2003
Messages
7,442
Location
Suffolk County NY
I have one system broken down in 3 parts also, and if using a gps, it gives you even more options.

Like Mark said, gps has great options if you use a gps when traveling. If you look at your system, I am sure some of the talk groups might have their own ranges set.

On mine, anything meant to be heard everywhere in the county has a 45 mile range set. And then universities and village police have ranges set smaller to only cover their areas. You can also change the ranges on talk groups in sentinel. If you don't use gps you can still use its features.
 

marksmith

Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2007
Messages
4,331
Location
Anne Arundel County, MD
Moral of the story, however, is that if you want to handle big systems, get a radio thst supports them from the start.

Don’t get a system memory limited radio and then hope for enhancement. The fix is hardware in the case of the 996/325, and not firmware.

Mark
536/436/ws1095/996p2/996xt/325p2/396xt/psr800/396t/HP-1/HP-2 & others
 

troymail

Silent Key
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
9,981
Location
Supply (Lockwood Inlet area), NC
Moral of the story, however, is that if you want to handle big systems, get a radio thst supports them from the start.

Don’t get a system memory limited radio and then hope for enhancement. The fix is hardware in the case of the 996/325, and not firmware.

Mark
536/436/ws1095/996p2/996xt/325p2/396xt/psr800/396t/HP-1/HP-2 & others

Hindsight is 20/20, eh?
 

marksmith

Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2007
Messages
4,331
Location
Anne Arundel County, MD
Hindsight is 20/20, eh?
Depends on when you buy.

All of my 396/996 t and xt are hindsight as 500 records per system was plenty (huge even) when I got them.

Got a couple real cheap (70% off) when Radio Shack died. I knew the limitation and knew what I was buying then and they were still a steal.

Also knew I was buying a limitation when I got the 325 p2 and 996 p2 because they are good radios for the purpose I use them.

But for big systems that are multi-site, or have a ton of talkgroups, they are just the wrong radios. Hopefully anyone considering them at this point will read threads such as this and know what they are buying. They are very good radios, but just not made for that type of thing.

Hopefully I can keep the understanding from being hindsight for others.

I should mention that as long as you are not real concerned with descriptions, you can put very few talkgroups in, run them on search, and hear everything, and they will also display all the radio ID info. Multisite systems can be entered as different systems which is not too inefficient since even radios that csn handle that have some delay as they acquire each control channel. So they are certainly not awful if you know how to do the workarounds.

Mark
536/436/ws1095/996p2/996xt/325p2/396xt/psr800/396t/HP-1/HP-2 & others
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top