Converting to Digital

SkiPatrolRadio · Feb 18, 2018

Greetings all. For the last couple years, I have been the de facto "radio guy" for my ski patrol's volunteer squad. 50 or so of us own personal radios and I've programmed a couple dozen CP200d's with the current analog scheme. I am definitely a novice radio programmer but I was easily able to program the radios on the repeater channel, DCS codes, etc. It was pretty straightforward to figure out.

Now, comes the hard part. The mountain has decided to convert to digital so I am trying to get ahead of it. They bought a fleet of Motorola 3500e's with digital programming. So, I grabbed one, read the programming and loaded it into my CP200d. No dice. Talkabout works fine but I cannot access the repeater.

I am guessing that I need a radio ID provided by the person who administers the repeater for the mountain. I had put in a random radio ID that I know doesn't conflict with other radios on the mountain. No go. Am I on point and, if so, what do I need to ask for?

This is a very simple digital setup. Talk only. No paging, no text, emergency channels, etc so the CP200d should work fine. In fact. I'm pretty sure the mountain redeployed their old CP200d's to other departments.

Any thought or ideas are much appreciated.

thassler · Feb 18, 2018

They may be using "RAS" (Restricted Access to System) which requires a code you will need from their admin. It's usually best if you get with the admin before programming any radio that utilizes their system.

SkiPatrolRadio · Feb 19, 2018

Thanks. I’ve been attempting to connect with them but it’s a little disjointed they way they run it. I should be able to connect with them soon as I keep trying. They’re just pretty busy in peak season.

If I look in the programming for the xpr 3500e that the mountain owns, would there be a RAS code in there? Also - how much does the radio ID have to do with it? Is it possible that there’s a server or repeater with a list of allowed Radio IDs or would that be an odd practice?

I’ve noticed the mountain owned radio IDs are all 100, 101, 102, etc. I tried programming one with an ID that wouldn’t conflict like 620111 and it doesn’t work. The talk around programming works fine radio to radio.
Just won’t access the repeater.

Thanks. Appreciate the help.

RadioGuy7268 · Feb 19, 2018

RAS can be implemented in 2 ways. There's either an RAS "Key Code" authentication as mentioned above, or it can be just a simple range of Radio ID#'s that is programmed into the repeater to allow valid access to the repeater.

Either way is an attempt to limit access to the repeater, but the RAS Key Code is a more secure method. It is also more of a pain to deal with in your situation, as protocol would mean that you can't just give out the Key Code to anyone who wants to program their own batch of radios.

If the RAS key is programmed into the XPR3500e - then you would be able see that there's a code enabled, but you're not going to be able to tell what the security key code actually is.

If you've got the codeplug open, check also to see what type of Privacy might be enabled. That can also be an issue between "e" models and non-e DMR units.

masstech · Feb 19, 2018

SkiPatrolRadio said:
Greetings all. For the last couple years, I have been the de facto "radio guy" for my ski patrol's volunteer squad. 50 or so of us own personal radios and I've programmed a couple dozen CP200d's with the current analog scheme. I am definitely a novice radio programmer but I was easily able to program the radios on the repeater channel, DCS codes, etc. It was pretty straightforward to figure out.

Are these CP200d's from the mountain/resort?

SkiPatrolRadio said:
Now, comes the hard part. The mountain has decided to convert to digital so I am trying to get ahead of it.

Good on you for taking initiative. Unfortunately, this may be something that you want to get permission from the license holder and/or radio shop (if the two are separate) from.

SkiPatrolRadio said:
They bought a fleet of Motorola 3500e's with digital programming. So, I grabbed one, read the programming and loaded it into my CP200d. No dice. Talkabout works fine but I cannot access the repeater.

What happens?

SkiPatrolRadio said:
I am guessing that I need a radio ID provided by the person who administers the repeater for the mountain. I had put in a random radio ID that I know doesn't conflict with other radios on the mountain. No go. Am I on point and, if so, what do I need to ask for?

Why did they buy 3500e's when they could have used CP200d's? This is a clue.

SkiPatrolRadio said:
This is a very simple digital setup. Talk only. No paging, no text, emergency channels, etc so the CP200d should work fine. In fact. I'm pretty sure the mountain redeployed their old CP200d's to other departments.

More about that clue: just because something is "talk only" does not mean it is a conventional repeater configuration. You can be looking at a IPSC, Cap+ or Max system.

Why redeploy the CP200ds when they can reuse them and buy more CP200ds?

thassler said:
They may be using "RAS" (Restricted Access to System) which requires a code you will need from their admin. It's usually best if you get with the admin before programming any radio that utilizes their system.

RAS is also possible, which means you must talk with whoever implemented the system.

SkiPatrolRadio said:
Thanks. I’ve been attempting to connect with them but it’s a little disjointed they way they run it. I should be able to connect with them soon as I keep trying. They’re just pretty busy in peak season.

Who are they?

SkiPatrolRadio said:
If I look in the programming for the xpr 3500e that the mountain owns, would there be a RAS code in there? Also - how much does the radio ID have to do with it? Is it possible that there’s a server or repeater with a list of allowed Radio IDs or would that be an odd practice?

If you read a radio, you will not obtain a RAS key value.

Read a radio, Security, and under Restricted Access to System, if you see key entries, then you will need to ask for key values.

If a system designer went through the trouble of implementing RAS (which means individual configurations of repeaters), they also probably went through the trouble of implementing radio ID range checking. It is in the same section where you enter a key when cnofiguring a repeater for RAS.

It is easier to implement ID range, then RAS keys.

SkiPatrolRadio said:
I’ve noticed the mountain owned radio IDs are all 100, 101, 102, etc. I tried programming one with an ID that wouldn’t conflict like 620111 and it doesn’t work. The talk around programming works fine radio to radio.
Just won’t access the repeater.

Another clue. It might be radio ID range RAS or you using a 6 digit ID, which is not possible on Cap+/Max systems. As long as you are authorized to do so (in which case you would have known the information needed to program your radios up), why don't you find a 3500e, determine it's radio ID, turn it off just in case, and see if your CP200d works with that 3500e's radio ID?

RadioGuy7268 said:
RAS can be implemented in 2 ways. There's either an RAS "Key Code" authentication as mentioned above, or it can be just a simple range of Radio ID#'s that is programmed into the repeater to allow valid access to the repeater.

Or both.

RadioGuy7268 said:
If you've got the codeplug open, check also to see what type of Privacy might be enabled. That can also be an issue between "e" models and non-e DMR units.

Privacy information can also be found in the Security section.

Project25_MASTR · Feb 19, 2018

Also, not all CP200d's are sold with digital firmware. In some cases, those radios will need to be upgraded.

There is also the possibility that a Capacity Plus systems is being used (I doubt Capacity Max is in use but could be). One item that is becoming more common is configuring a single channel Capacity Plus system. Essentially, it dynamically assigns the timeslot as availability demands and is quite an effect form of management when using 3-6 talkgroups on one repeater.

SkiPatrolRadio · Feb 19, 2018

Answers inline. Thanks!!!

masstech said:
"Are these CP200d's from the mountain/resort?" - No. These are personally owned and have been bought by individuals over the years because patrol doesn't have enough radios for everyone who wants one during peak days (patrollers, supervisors, safety ambassadors, trainees, etc)

"Good on you for taking initiative. Unfortunately, this may be something that you want to get permission from the license holder and/or radio shop (if the two are separate) from." - I definitely am getting permission. Our patrol director is well aware of what I have been doing the last couple years with programming people's personal analog radios and has been fully supportive because it helps him with the radio shortage.

"What happens?" - When I key the mic, instead of getting the "ok" chip , I get the long tone after keying the mic for a few seconds.

"Why did they buy 3500e's when they could have used CP200d's? This is a clue." - I believe they redeployed the CP200d's to other, less critical departments. Since patrol is roughest on our radios, I believe they gave us the newest ones.

"More about that clue: just because something is "talk only" does not mean it is a conventional repeater configuration. You can be looking at a IPSC, Cap+ or Max system." - Thanks - something I need to check into.

"Why redeploy the CP200ds when they can reuse them and buy more CP200ds?" - as I said above, I believe they redeployed to other departments. either that or they were leased and the lease was up. Unsure.

'RAS is also possible, which means you must talk with whoever implemented the system.' - will check. thanks.

'Who are they?' - sorry I don't understand the question.

If you read a radio, you will not obtain a RAS key value.

Read a radio, Security, and under Restricted Access to System, if you see key entries, then you will need to ask for key values.

If a system designer went through the trouble of implementing RAS (which means individual configurations of repeaters), they also probably went through the trouble of implementing radio ID range checking. It is in the same section where you enter a key when cnofiguring a repeater for RAS.

It is easier to implement ID range, then RAS keys.

Another clue. It might be radio ID range RAS or you using a 6 digit ID, which is not possible on Cap+/Max systems. As long as you are authorized to do so (in which case you would have known the information needed to program your radios up), why don't you find a 3500e, determine it's radio ID, turn it off just in case, and see if your CP200d works with that 3500e's radio ID?

Or both.

Privacy information can also be found in the Security section.

SkiPatrolRadio · Feb 19, 2018

MCore25 said:
Also, not all CP200d's are sold with digital firmware. In some cases, those radios will need to be upgraded.

There is also the possibility that a Capacity Plus systems is being used (I doubt Capacity Max is in use but could be). One item that is becoming more common is configuring a single channel Capacity Plus system. Essentially, it dynamically assigns the timeslot as availability demands and is quite an effect form of management when using 3-6 talkgroups on one repeater.

Yes - I already have a plan for that. If the firmware needs to be upgraded on some of the CP200d's, I have a dealer ready to sell everyone the license keys so we can get that done. Thanks.

SkiPatrolRadio · Feb 19, 2018

First - you guys have been extremely helpful. Thank you. The programming seems pretty basic.

Here's what it looks like:

Channel 1: Facility Ops - digital talk group on frequency x (repeater)
Channel 2: Repeater 1 - analog repeater channel on frequency y - this is what has been used for years by patrol, mountain ops, lift maintenance, etc. DCS.
Channel 3: Repeater 3 - analog repeater channel on frequency z - used by traffic control, etc
Channel 4: Mountain Ops - digital talk group on frequency x (repeater)
Channel 5; Patrol - digital talk group on frequency x (repeater)
Channel 6: Talkaround - digital talk around talk group on frequency x (non repeater)

Question - if two radios with the same radio ID show up on the network at the same time, what happens as long as they aren't trying to transmit at the same time? I'm not even receiving any audio with the current radio ID I have programmed.

Thanks again all.

SkiPatrolRadio · Feb 19, 2018

I just went into the codeplug and looked - privacy is disabled on the mountain's 3500e but I had mistakenly set it to "basic" on my CP200d. Would that cause an issue? Assuming yes. I can try disabling it and seeing if that works.

masstech · Feb 19, 2018

SkiPatrolRadio said:
No. These are personally owned and have been bought by individuals over the years because patrol doesn't have enough radios for everyone who wants one during peak days (patrollers, supervisors, safety ambassadors, trainees, etc)

SkiPatrolRadio said:
I definitely am getting permission. Our patrol director is well aware of what I have been doing the last couple years with programming people's personal analog radios and has been fully supportive because it helps him with the radio shortage.

Is the patrol director the licensee of the license(s) involved? We do not really care about this, but do know that you will have the self-badged radio police here.

SkiPatrolRadio said:
When I key the mic, instead of getting the "ok" chip , I get the long tone after keying the mic for a few seconds.

And talkaround works (with between the CP200d's and XPR3500e's?) If talkaround works between different model radios, then there's no reason repeater access should not work, provided it is a simple configuration. If talkaround only works between the CP200d's but not with the XPR3500e's, you may have a privacy setting mismatch somewhere (which will explain why the repeaters reject your CP200d's, since they must also be configured to match what level of privacy is being repeated).

SkiPatrolRadio said:
I believe they redeployed the CP200d's to other, less critical departments. Since patrol is roughest on our radios, I believe they gave us the newest ones.

Why not buy CP200d's for everyone?

SkiPatrolRadio said:
sorry I don't understand the question.

Who is installing the new repeaters and setting up the new radios?

SkiPatrolRadio said:
Yes - I already have a plan for that. If the firmware needs to be upgraded on some of the CP200d's, I have a dealer ready to sell everyone the license keys so we can get that done. Thanks.

Even if the CP200d's have digital enabled, you should download the latest firmware and get all of them onto the latest firmware, since you'll be reprogramming them and have them with you already anyways.

SkiPatrolRadio said:
First - you guys have been extremely helpful. Thank you. The programming seems pretty basic.

Not a problem. You are asking good, if not the right questions.

SkiPatrolRadio said:
Here's what it looks like:

Channel 1: Facility Ops - digital talk group on frequency x (repeater)
Channel 2: Repeater 1 - analog repeater channel on frequency y - this is what has been used for years by patrol, mountain ops, lift maintenance, etc. DCS.
Channel 3: Repeater 3 - analog repeater channel on frequency z - used by traffic control, etc
Channel 4: Mountain Ops - digital talk group on frequency x (repeater)
Channel 5; Patrol - digital talk group on frequency x (repeater)
Channel 6: Talkaround - digital talk around talk group on frequency x (non repeater)

Are channels 1, 4, and 5 on the same repeater? What timeslots, or is this a single repeater Cap+ system?

SkiPatrolRadio said:
Question - if two radios with the same radio ID show up on the network at the same time, what happens as long as they aren't trying to transmit at the same time? I'm not even receiving any audio with the current radio ID I have programmed.

If the system is truly a simple conventional setup, and a watchdog is not in place, then nothing.

SkiPatrolRadio said:
I just went into the codeplug and looked - privacy is disabled on the mountain's 3500e but I had mistakenly set it to "basic" on my CP200d. Would that cause an issue? Assuming yes. I can try disabling it and seeing if that works.

Yes. You must program the repeater codeplugs to let them know if they are repeating encrypted traffic, and what level of it, or if there is no privacy.

Since the XPR 3500e's have not been programmed for privacy, but the CP200d's have been, the new repeaters probably have been programmed with no privacy. Therefore, your CP200d's fail to receive a grant to transmit encrypted audio because the repeaters will not allow it.

K2NEC · Feb 19, 2018

I don't think the CP200d's can have RAS right? So if they didn't have it before it theoretically shouldn't be a problem with the XPR3500's right?

SkiPatrolRadio · Feb 19, 2018

So, to answer the question about why not just give CP200d's to everyone....the mountain had CP200d's for years. I think the reason for the 3500e is just a simple fleet upgrade/addition and they're buying the newest radios. Either that or they were leasing the CP200d's and the lease was up. Honestly, they could've used CP200d's for what they are planning on doing with them. Probably a waste IMHO.

In fact, the volume on the analog channels is so low on the remote mic on the 3500e that everyone wishes they had the CP200d's back! (any ideas on this one? they have the remote Motorola speaker/mic)

I made a couple changes. On both CP200d radios I own I disabled privacy. On one radio, I changed the Radio ID to a known Radio ID (135) that is currently working with a 3500e. That should tell me if it's a radio ID issue. I left the original radio ID I was using on the other one (620999).

Will let everyone know tomorrow.

Again - thank you very much for all the help!!

K2NEC · Feb 19, 2018

SkiPatrolRadio said:
Honestly, they could've used CP200d's for what they are planning on doing with them. Probably a waste IMHO.

In fact, the volume on the analog channels is so low on the remote mic on the 3500e that everyone wishes they had the CP200d's back! (any ideas on this one? they have the remote Motorola speaker/mic)

Try the audio profile in the general settings in the CPS. That might be where the issue is. Also from what you are describing it sounds like an upgrade wasn't necessary but what can you do.

SkiPatrolRadio · Feb 20, 2018

Turns out RAS is enabled. I just found the setting. I am going to take a stab that it's the default key of 000000 but it's a long shot. As I said, I've been trying to sync with the system administrator which seems to be the only go forward option here. Thanks again for all the help.

Converting to Digital

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