G5 not recognizing patched TG

scan18 · Apr 9, 2018

Hello,

I just got my phase 2 G5 and have been playing around with it on my local VHF P25 system. One thing I noticed is that if I have a TG programmed that is normally patched, the G5 doesn't seem to recognize activity on that TG.

I'm probably not explaining it very well, but for example, on my local system the Fire Dispatch TG is 6505. According to pro96Com, it appears that every time there is a call on this TG, it is actually patched from a different TG, in my case TG 6502 on the site I am monitoring. I would like to program a knob position to monitor only activity on TG 6505. However, when I setup a knob position as such it never stops on any transmissions. If I program in the "source" TG 6502, then it does stop on the dispatch transmissions however 6502 is also the TAC channel for my area so I also get all the other traffic on that TG.

Has anyone run across this before and if so, is there a specific setting within PPS to allow a patched TG to be recognized?

I did confirm that I have Alert Mode set to Tone in the knob position setting I have setup for this TG.

It's not a real big deal because I can just use TG 6502, but I was hoping to dedicate a knob position to just the dispatch calls and nothing else.

Thanks.

JD21960 · Apr 9, 2018

Yes. It's a known thing. There are many thread posts about it in Unication forums.

scan18 · Apr 9, 2018

Ok thanks, I’ll do some more reading. I did some searching, but I guess I wasn’t smart enough to realize that the issues I was reading about are related.

JSsignal16 · Apr 10, 2018

That's interesting, I don't seem to have any issue with patches on a local Motorola P25 system I monitor with my G5. I will point out that they are phase 1 FDMA talkgroups. I'm not sure how it does on Phase 2 TDMA talkgroups. Do you have talkgroup 6505 programmed by itself on a knob position?

troymail · Apr 10, 2018

From the description, it sounds like when they patch, the master/primary TG for the patch is 6502 and the patch "contains" the TG 6505 and the Unication is only processing the master/primary TG. Hopefully, they can correct this and see the patched TG list and receive the voice call normally on 6502 or 6505 (in this scenario).

scan18 · Apr 10, 2018

JSsignal16 said:
That's interesting, I don't seem to have any issue with patches on a local Motorola P25 system I monitor with my G5. I will point out that they are phase 1 FDMA talkgroups. I'm not sure how it does on Phase 2 TDMA talkgroups. Do you have talkgroup 6505 programmed by itself on a knob position?

Yes, I do have the one TG 6505 programmed by itself

Thanks all the explanations.

lexmedic157 · Apr 13, 2018

I may be running into that issue as well with a Harris phase 2 system. Dispatch sends a "stack" to activate a dept. Dispatch TG, Dept Page TG, and analog paging. It appears, scanners have a difficult time interpreting the system assigned ID as well as the G5. The talkgroups don't show up as their normal, rather a rotating 5 digit number nothing like the 4 digit TG. Trying to figure out a work around for the entire county. I hear the dispatch TG open and voice, but that's not where you determine what dept it is. I even have the paging TG higher in the list as priority and still nothing.

APX8000 · Apr 14, 2018

The patch issue is seen particularly with Harris systems. Like mentioned above, it’s a known issue.

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lexmedic157 · Apr 14, 2018

Any decent work around?

troymail · Apr 14, 2018

There are some old EDACS systems that patch using random TGIDs... seems this carried into their P25 systems - at least one I've monitored patches onto what appear to be somewhat random 65xxx TGIDs. I assume there is some type of "setup" pushed out in the control channel because if I remember correctly, the normal talkgroups that are in that patch do not receive anything - the radio must be receiving the patch announcement and monitoring that random patch ID .... I've watched this on Pro96Com as well - patch pops up, voice call made, patch drops really quickly.

This makes me wonder - is this a P25 standard such that a radio from any vendor will work? Ok, I'm speculating and rambling now....

troymail · Apr 14, 2018

lexmedic157 said:
Any decent work around?

If you have any sense of which range of TGIDs are used for the patches, I suppose you could program a "range" and monitor them for a bit to see what happens.... Temporarily using a wildcard or TG-Monitor might help too but that might be ugly on a busy system.

Of course, if the patch TGs are not specific to any service (fire, ems, law, etc.) you never know what you'll hear....

IRT my previous post -- look at the TGs in these systems....

https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?sid=5505

https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?sid=2672

FWIW - during my monitoring of a system a few months back, this is the type of thing I'd see - the subsequent voice call would be over TGID 65172:

Timestamp Description
12/22/2018 16:32 Added Patch: 0 () --> 65172 ()
12/22/2018 16:32 Added Patch: 1001 (Wayne Fire) --> 65172 ()
12/22/2018 16:32 Added Patch: 101 () --> 65172 ()
12/22/2018 16:32 Removed Patch: 101 (T: 1111 DT: 12/22/17@16:32) --> 65172 (T: 1111 DT: 12/22/17@16:32)
12/22/2018 16:32 Removed Patch: 1001 (Wayne Fire) --> 65172 (T: 1111 DT: 12/22/17@16:32)
12/22/2018 16:32 Removed Patch: 0 () --> 65172 (T: 1111 DT: 12/22/17@16:32)
12/22/2018 16:32 Added Patch: 0 () --> 65172 (T: 1111 DT: 12/22/17@16:32)[/SIZE]

slicerwizard · Apr 14, 2018

troymail said:
There are some old EDACS systems that patch using random TGIDs... seems this carried into their P25 systems - at least one I've monitored patches onto what appear to be somewhat random 65xxx TGIDs. I assume there is some type of "setup" pushed out in the control channel because if I remember correctly, the normal talkgroups that are in that patch do not receive anything - the radio must be receiving the patch announcement and monitoring that random patch ID .... I've watched this on Pro96Com as well - patch pops up, voice call made, patch drops really quickly.

This makes me wonder - is this a P25 standard such that a radio from any vendor will work? Ok, I'm speculating and rambling now....

Patching is not part of the P25 standard. I guess Motorola and Harris couldn't agree on whose method would be used, so instead it's vendor specific patch announcements.

Still no excuse for Unication to not handle them - even DSD+ understands them.

TSDU NET_STS_BCST WACN ID=BEE00 SysID=1AC LRA=0 CC=414.8875 SC=60
ADJ_STS_BCST SysID=1AC LRA=0 RFSS=1 Site=2 CC=410.5375 SC=70 CFVA=3: Networked
MOT_PATCH_ANN Supergroup=206 Subgroup=252
TSDU Opcode=9 MFID=90 0D C0 00 00 00 00 00 00
MOT_PATCH_ANN Supergroup=209 Subgroup=253
SYNC_BCST US=0 IST=1 MMU=0 MC=0 VL=1 LTO=-5h 2017/08/19 19:32 uSlot=6720
TSDU IDEN_UP_TDMA ID=0 Base=380.0125 Offset=+5 Spacing=25 BW=12.5 Slots=2
Opcode=5 MFID=90 40 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
RFSS_STS_BCST SysID=1AC LRA=0 RFSS=1 Site=3 CC=414.8875 SC=60
TSDU UU_V_CH_GRANT_UPDT Tgt=8158 Src=110002 ch=410.9625-2
MOT_BSI_GRANT Null BSI ch=414.8875
SCCB RFSS=1 Site=3 [ch=410.3125 SSC=04] [ch=410.3125 SSC=04]
TSDU NET_STS_BCST WACN ID=BEE00 SysID=1AC LRA=0 CC=414.8875 SC=60
ADJ_STS_BCST SysID=1AC LRA=0 RFSS=1 Site=4 CC=410.3125 SC=70 CFVA=3: Networked
MOT_PATCH_ANN Supergroup=108 Subgroup=102

TSDU M/A-COM_P/SS_ANN Patch=65194 TG=19001
TSDU NET_STS_BCST WACN ID=148DE SysID=00A LRA=25 CC=769.88125 SC=70
TSDU GRP_V_CH_GRANT_UPDT TG=19001 ch=770.34375-1
TSDU M/A-COM_P/SS_ANN Patch=65194 TG=19002
TSDU IDEN_UP_TDMA ID=8 Base=769.00625 Offset=+30 Spacing=6.25 BW=12.5 Slots=2
TSDU GRP_V_CH_GRANT_UPDT TG=19001 ch=770.34375-1
TSDU M/A-COM_P/SS_ANN Patch=65194 TG=19003

ThePagerGeek · Apr 14, 2018

Patching and Simulselect fall under the "Dynamic Regrouping Messages and Procedures" P25 standard, TIA-102.AABH

Unfortunately, this is one of the "broken" standards since they accepted both Motorola and Harris versions as the standard. The good news is, both formats are now clearly defined instead of proprietary secret squirrel stuff.

APX8000 · Apr 14, 2018

As others stated above, you can program the range of talkgroups that the system uses if you know them. If you look at Miami-Dade County Harris P25 system in the DB as an example, it can fill up that knob position pretty quick.

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slicerwizard · Apr 15, 2018

ThePagerGeek said:
Patching and Simulselect fall under the "Dynamic Regrouping Messages and Procedures" P25 standard, TIA-102.AABH

Unfortunately, this is one of the "broken" standards since they accepted both Motorola and Harris versions as the standard. The good news is, both formats are now clearly defined instead of proprietary secret squirrel stuff.

Nice - "standard" messages that use vendor-specific MFIDs...

lexmedic157 · Apr 15, 2018

I think it really would help if the PPS included a lockout function or ignore list similar to the TG add list in the TG-monitor setting. I know it's not a scanner, but it may help to work around the interpretation of the SAIDs.

APX8000 · Apr 15, 2018

slicerwizard said:
Nice - "standard" messages that use vendor-specific MFIDs...

Exactly !

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ThePagerGeek · Apr 15, 2018

Same with simulcast. As long as it's CQPSK, it "passes" the standards test. LSM (Motorola) vs WCQPSK (Harris) and their Phase 2 equivalents. Slightly different, yet both are "standard compliant."

The problem is, since so many of both flavors have been deployed, the "standard makers" don't want to be the ones to tell the loser they need to change.... for millions of dollars. They seem to be ok with broad mandates like "P25 or nothing" but when it comes to manufacturer specific, it seems they appease both.

Frustrating for sure.

tglendye · Apr 16, 2018

lexmedic157 said:
I may be running into that issue as well with a Harris phase 2 system. Dispatch sends a "stack" to activate a dept. Dispatch TG, Dept Page TG, and analog paging. It appears, scanners have a difficult time interpreting the system assigned ID as well as the G5. The talkgroups don't show up as their normal, rather a rotating 5 digit number nothing like the 4 digit TG. Trying to figure out a work around for the entire county. I hear the dispatch TG open and voice, but that's not where you determine what dept it is. I even have the paging TG higher in the list as priority and still nothing.

What would be interesting to me would be to find out what your Harris radio does if you have it selected on another channel (say OPS 1) and scanning. I would like to know what happens when a call is dispatched on your dispatch channel.

I am in Rockingham County, a little north of you. Our Dispatch channel is Tac 1. If we have a radio on another channel and place the radio into scan mode, we can hear our pre-alert and tones over Tac 1, but no voice traffic. We can hear units speaking on Tac 1 and even the dispatcher- when a call is not being dispatched, but as long as the radio is in scan mode we do not hear the dispatcher when a call is dispatched. I know of a few incidents where this has caused some problems. I think it is unacceptable (not that my opinion matters). From a scanner standpoint, I run my 436 in ID Search mode because of this.

I believe this is "simply" a Harris (or M/A-Com or GE or whoever else) issue. While it would be nice for the scanner manufacturers to find a solution, I don't think we can expect them to when the system's own radios do not perform correctly.

tglendye · Apr 17, 2018

I should add we are on a Harris ProVoice system. We will be migrating to p2 sometime soon.

G5 not recognizing patched TG

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