RR Use By LE Agencies and Other Radio Agencies

twobytwo · Oct 18, 2018

I have seen several instances where info from radioreference.com has been used by a law enforcement agency or a radio system administrator and no credit given to RR ,whether it is screen shots or info that could have only been taken from this site. I know there are many contributors that are dispatchers, fire fighters, LEOs, etc that are faithful members here , and I THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE in your communities and contributions to this site.

What I have would like to see is contributions from the specific agencies to this site. Many agencies have a cloak of secrecy attitude with frequencies, tgs , etc. I have a friend that is a pd dispatcher. He was shocked when I showed him Call Signs, frequencies and the other info from the FCC website. So a lot of the info is public info any way. RR is just fine tuning the info.

I think that contributions from the public service agencies would benefit them in the long run and they dont realize it. Examples are limitless, such as a medical helicopter would know freq an ambulance is using when flying to an accident to rely info , a fire fighter out of state to assist at a forest fire, or a major disaster where different departments from probably different states are responding from.

Thoughts?

dispatch235 · Oct 18, 2018

I dispatch for our fire dept and any time I know of any updates to systems in our area I submit it to the database. I do most of our radio updates for our dept, and it amazes me how little some agencies know about what their radio vendors do to their radios (pl tones, repeater inputs, etc). They may call or email us and say hey we changed our pl tone or put up a repeater, but the vendor never gives them the info on exactly what they changed, or they don't understand anything about a radio except key the mike.

krokus · Oct 18, 2018

twobytwo said:
Examples are limitless, such as a medical helicopter would know freq an ambulance is using when flying to an accident to rely info , a fire fighter out of state to assist at a forest fire, or a major disaster where different departments from probably different states are responding from.

Thoughts?

The medical helicopters I am aware of, are pre-programmed with radio coverage for their expected response area. Plus, they have special radios available, that they can program in flight.

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DaveNF2G · Oct 18, 2018

Dispatch for medical helicopters is centralized and the dispatchers can provide the necessary ground contact information, which they get from whomever is requesting the response.

ecps92 · Oct 18, 2018

Many also have guide books which contain [that are updated annually and shared within the Region]
a. Lat/Lon of the pre-approved LZ and ID #
b. Phone lists of the PD/FD/EMS who cover that municipality
c. Freq/Tones [PL/DPL/NAC] for those in b.
d. If a Hospital the a.b. and c for that Hospital [outside of CMED] but direct to Security to secure the LZ

DaveNF2G said:

Dispatch for medical helicopters is centralized and the dispatchers can provide the necessary ground contact information, which they get from whomever is requesting the response.

Click to expand...

KE4ZNR · Oct 18, 2018

ecps92 said:
Many also have guide books which contain [that are updated annually and shared within the Region]
a. Lat/Lon of the pre-approved LZ and ID #
b. Phone lists of the PD/FD/EMS who cover that municipality
c. Freq/Tones [PL/DPL/NAC] for those in b.
d. If a Hospital the a.b. and c for that Hospital [outside of CMED] but direct to Security to secure the LZ

Yep. An example from here in NC is the state published "Dial Code Book".

Marshall KE4ZNR

Giddyuptd · Oct 18, 2018

There are many entities or persons within it that give the information to RR.

I've known several to also program their detention units with RR data for rx only when they travel using the Vlaw or state mutual aid channel as means to get ahold of those counties they cross but monitor the areas dispatch they travel to transporting inmates. I've seen some system admin do this also.

New Mexico has a similiar code book though it is a restricted pdf. We have used it to program our department radios though not many in smaller areas know of or know how to officially obtain a copy. Many go through advanced communications which does initial programming and any updates are done by local in house techs or advanced if they are contracted to handle the updates.

ecps92 · Oct 18, 2018

I forgot about that GEM

KE4ZNR said:
Yep. An example from here in NC is the state published "Dial Code Book".

Marshall KE4ZNR

IAmSixNine · Oct 19, 2018

About a year ago a few cities near me transitioned to a new P25 Phase 2 system from several analog Type 2 systems. Most PD are encrypted on it. 2 weeks into the switch one agency got into chase, requested DPS Helo, their response was, sorry we cant talk to you guys on the new radio system, nobody notified us and our radios dont work. Cant help you. Same month Medical helo was declined due to same issue. After a few months things got ironed out but dang it should have never even been like that.

Its to bad many radio companies / admins / whom ever hate to share info. I do agree that there are some bad eggs out there who use the info along with bad judgement but for the most part the community of radio admins and scanner people should not fear one another. Unfortunately i see more radio systems being administered by IT people who think locking it down is the only way to go since they have such high security standards on the computer networks.

Giddyuptd · Oct 19, 2018

The idea behind the each his own was interops such as ucall, vcalls, 7/8tacs be supported and utilized though it isn't happening. A known go to channel.

Many tend to not switch, patch, or have a plan and if they do they rarely use it and it's been seen in disasters already.

It goes back to treat your radio like a item on your belt you'd qualify for.

Some entities do want true interop including dispatch to their neighbors with more capacity radios available.

The issue of why could go on forever.

Where I am the attitude is the local pd may hear our sheriffs dept and compromise investigations involving their people, vice versa is where the attitude is going. They cant even agree for a psap let alone a agreed interop.

Very few have "all" the channels luckily I do.

With as many in vhf and radios capable of many zones you're lucky if the towns have 3 zones in them a home zone and the 2 vci zones.

Good luck even getting then to program a talkaround button giving more channels in a 16 ch zone.

Giddyuptd · Oct 19, 2018

Here is a good read

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...WMAJ6BAgHEAE&usg=AOvVaw1Yy9pHUyW7uXjlTmEKqq6f

mastr · Oct 19, 2018

twobytwo said:
...Many agencies have a cloak of secrecy attitude with frequencies, tgs , etc....
Thoughts?

IF it were within my power, the configuration information for systems under my care would be confidential, and those discovered distributing same would be discharged if an employee, or banned from the system if an outside user.

While the majority of people (probably) use such information responsibly and in relatively harmless fashion, there is always some moron who decides to play around and create a nuisance or worse. Hampering the actions of that moron is the reason for the "cloak of secrecy".

AI7PM · Oct 19, 2018

twobytwo said:
.......... Examples are limitless, such as a medical helicopter would know freq an ambulance is using when flying to an accident to rely info , a fire fighter out of state to assist at a forest fire, or a major disaster where different departments from probably different states are responding from.

Thoughts?

The regs do not permit them to program their radios into other radio systems willy nilly, and with good reason. Any legitimate need to be on another agency's radio system would be properly coordinated via their radio manager or incident COML/COMT.

Additionally, the interoperability scheme in the DHS NIFOG is designed specifically to address your examples. The pros don't need an enthusiast web site with unverified data to cover their needs.

DaveNF2G · Oct 20, 2018

mastr said:
IF it were within my power, the configuration information for systems under my care would be confidential, and those discovered distributing same would be discharged if an employee, or banned from the system if an outside user.

You would be wasting your time.

The only way to keep a frequency or related information secret is to never use it.

mastr · Oct 20, 2018

DaveNF2G said:
You would be wasting your time...

That is why I wrote "if it were within my power", and why encryption is so popular these days.

burner50 · Oct 20, 2018

ecps92 said:
Many also have guide books which contain [that are updated annually and shared within the Region]
a. Lat/Lon of the pre-approved LZ and ID #
b. Phone lists of the PD/FD/EMS who cover that municipality
c. Freq/Tones [PL/DPL/NAC] for those in b.
d. If a Hospital the a.b. and c for that Hospital [outside of CMED] but direct to Security to secure the LZ

Seems.... Unnecessary.

Things like this are the reason we have NIFOG.

ecps92 · Oct 20, 2018

IF a State adopts a uniform LZ pair then yes, but many of the long running Helo's maintain their own Operational Plans in conjunction with the municipalities. - Works well here

Also if we all relied on the NIFOG, then why does DHS support and endorse states having their own Field Gudes outside of the NIFOG.
Many things are best left LOCAL, until the need for National support is requested/required. Long Proven and Tested

burner50 said:
Seems.... Unnecessary.

Things like this are the reason we have NIFOG.

burner50 · Oct 20, 2018

ecps92 said:
IF a State adopts a uniform LZ pair then yes, but many of the long running Helo's maintain their own Operational Plans in conjunction with the municipalities. - Works well here

Also if we all relied on the NIFOG, then why does DHS support and endorse states having their own Field Gudes outside of the NIFOG.
Many things are best left LOCAL, until the need for National support is requested/required. Long Proven and Tested

I guess in smaller states where there are a large number of aircraft in a small area, sure.

But out in flyover country, the range of a helicopter can be quite extensive and the aircraft I get may not be "local".

A better plan than having rigid guidelines would be to simply obtain frequency information for a ground contact when the aircraft is requested.

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zz0468 · Oct 20, 2018

ecps92 said:
Also if we all relied on the NIFOG, then why does DHS support and endorse states having their own Field Gudes outside of the NIFOG.

States and local governments have frequency plans and interoperability resources that aren't allocated at the federal level. That information needs to be compiled and distributed at a local level.

burner50 · Oct 20, 2018

zz0468 said:
States and local governments have frequency plans and interoperability resources that aren't allocated at the federal level. That information needs to be compiled and distributed at a local level.

That's fine if they're using a simple standard that is widely adopted.

However, if it requires referencing a document, odds are that it will be ignored in the field on small incidents.

1st issue is that it takes time out of the already busy responders other tasks.

2nd issue is that copies of documents get lost or buried inside larger documents.

Exhaustive and complete plans are great for people who sit behind desks and get paid to create such documents. But in the field, simple is best. The HEMS dispatch should simply ask what frequency will be used to reach the designated ground contact.

Where I am, I have several frequencies to choose from.

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