Brevard County P25 Migration

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srich10

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While scanning the Brevard County Analog EDACS system, I heard a digitized voice transmission. It was on the Indialantic Dispatch 3 channel. If you watch the video link attached you can hear the digitization In a couple of the transmissions. Sounds like a P25 transmission on an analog designated/affiliated talkgroup. I’m not an expert on Mixed-mode EDACS talkgroups. No PRV indicistors on the data side of the scanner. Just digitized audio.

I’ve heard this previously on this system before when there’s been St Johns County and Flagler county deputies keying up and us hearing them through the PSIC1 and PSIC2 patches on our system.

Is the P25 migration beginning? I have a direct contact with BCSO and they said CII has not touched their radios in a while and nothing related to anything digital, ProVoice OR P25

Video link: https://youtu.be/XsRSdmK3FCo
 

902

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I guess you're referring to that "gollywobbles" sound on the background of some transmissions. I hear the same thing on certain transmissions on Volusia. I haven't really looked at it very closely. I do know Volusia has a P25 site covering the southwestern corner, not sure if they scan and affiliate in, or if it's just the radio's (not the scanner's) digital signal processing.
 

srich10

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I guess you're referring to that "gollywobbles" sound on the background of some transmissions. I hear the same thing on certain transmissions on Volusia. I haven't really looked at it very closely. I do know Volusia has a P25 site covering the southwestern corner, not sure if they scan and affiliate in, or if it's just the radio's (not the scanner's) digital signal processing.



Did you watch the video link for the actual transmissions I’m referencing? Should give you a good sense of what I’m talking about.

I’m not talking about worbling distortions in the background audio of an analog transmission. I mean this transmission actually “sounds” like it’s being processed from the radio using an IMBE/AMBE +2 vocoder and transmitted out as analog audio with digital signal processing


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rescue674aa

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I talked to William K4SVT out in Titusville and is always listening with his Harris Radio and Scanners and says there is no movement on P25 and they were probably just some communications patched together. I’ll listen to the video and get a good idea who it could be

Dustin


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rescue674aa

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Thanks for the info, I'll keep an ear on it. We just moved into the area and one of the advantages is the Brevard County system is easy to monitor.



Yes it fairly is just Analog EDACS and Provoice.


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TDR-94

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It is most likely noise cancellation you are hearing being used. Many agencies are now using XG-75 portable radios.Those portable radios feature noise cancellation for both analog and digital modulation.The user can toggle it off and on from the radio menu. It results in a digital like sound quality to the audio,even when used on analog,due to the noise removal being attempted by the noise cancellation.
 
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srich10

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It is most likely noise cancellation you are hearing being used. Many agencies are now using XG-75 portable radios.Those portable radios feature noise cancellation for both analog and digital modulation.The user can toggle it off and on from the radio menu. It results in a digital like sound quality to the audio,even when used on analog,due to the noise removal being attempted by the noise cancellation.



Yeup, I know exactly what you’re talking about but that’s not it. Palm Bay and somebody else smaller uses the XG-100’s and 75’s and I’ve heard their Audio profiles do that on transmit. You can spot them out easily without looking at the radio.

Same thing with a couple Melbourne officers. A couple of their packsets always have a distinct roving worble in the background of their audio.
Now THIS definitely sounds different.

I’m currently uploading another clip I took of the PSIC1 patch that routed in P25 clear audio from Flagler and St Johns if I’m not mistaken. Once uploaded I’ll link it to you so you can hear it and judge it against just normal audio profile background cancellation




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trooper890

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Lte

Or PTT over LTE (BEon, wave, etc) On its way to a radio system near you via FirstNet, etc.
 

srich10

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Or PTT over LTE (BEon, wave, etc) On its way to a radio system near you via FirstNet, etc.



HAHAHAHA.....nope. Don’t even want to go down that farce of a fox hole

There’s already been hand smacking over jurisdictions using PTT over LTE Solutions for operations. SOP is to use LMR or MDT for road patrol. Couple state statute issues as well as Florida Constitution ones that arise from its use.


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rescue674aa

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Yeah you loose LTE and BeOn won’t work. Kinda unreliable tool to use but that’s just my opinion.

Dustin


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rescue674aa

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I just think the p7300 or XG75 sounds better than a scanner.

Dustin


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srich10

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I just think the p7300 or XG75 sounds better than a scanner.

Dustin


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Well that’s a given for pretty much any Mission Critical LMR system out there. I’d run that if it didn’t cost an arm and a leg to NAS. Infuriates the crap out of me that I don’t have my Site Affiliated scanning or TG roaming in my scanner because it’s annoying having a clear transmission 1 second and static the next from switching between South, North and Beach on a stubby. May just nite the bullet eventually


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rescue674aa

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You can actually turn off affiliation on a Harris radio and yes it has been proven because mine is on a system here in Virginia. I would suggest talking to K4SVT he can help you with a Harris since his P7300 and Orion with NA disabled.

He’s never done me wrong

But your entitled to your opinion I’m just putting it out there.

Dustin.


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rescue674aa

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He also said Me that Brevard is starting to merge talkgroups together on both north and south sites


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ElroyJetson

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DO NOT ASK ME FOR HELP PROGRAMMING YOUR RADIO. NO.
Brevard's system does have a limited number of ProVoice users but I am quite sure that there is no P25 activity on it whatsoever.

The system is zero percent P25 and the migration to P25 will be, as I understand it, very nearly a "forklift upgrade" at the sites, replacing all required site equipment, but possibly not the repeaters themselves as they're recently installed Master Vs, fully P25 Phase II capable. The removed equipment will be replaced with fully built and tested new equipment while the subscriber radios will receive a first touch to add P25 system information, and when that is operational and fully tested, the radios will later receive a second touch to delete the obsolete EDACS data.

According to the information I've gathered, the P25 migration is supposed to start with P25 Phase 1 trunking which will be in operation for about one year which will be used to shake down any and all RF coverage issues and then when it's proven to be working to standard, there will then be a quick transition to Phase II TDMA roughly a year after Phase 1 is implemented.

I think that it'd be logical for the system radios to receive both their Phase 1 and Phase 2 system data at the same time to avoid having to duplicate the considerable effort involved in reprogramming all subscriber radios. After a successful migration to Phase 2 then the radios could be touched again to delete the extraneous and obsolete personality data without any time constraints.

Giving credit where it's due, the County and CI have gone about the planning for this upgrade in a very deliberate, methodical manner. There is no rush. Although Harris has formally ended support for EDACS, the existing system is healthy and well maintained and the County has stockpiled plenty of spares to keep the system fully operational for longer than it'll actually be needed.

For that reason I expect that the transitions from EDACS to P1 and then to P2 will likely go quite smoothly. Proper Preparation Prevents Piss-Poor Performance.

Note, I am not an "insider" and I can not verify that this is precisely the planned migration path but it is correct according to the best I've been able to come up with from various sources including documents posted on the county's emergency management website.
 

rescue674aa

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Hey Elroy if it ain’t broke why replace it?


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srich10

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Brevard's system does have a limited number of ProVoice users but I am quite sure that there is no P25 activity on it whatsoever.



The system is zero percent P25 and the migration to P25 will be, as I understand it, very nearly a "forklift upgrade" at the sites, replacing all required site equipment, but possibly not the repeaters themselves as they're recently installed Master Vs, fully P25 Phase II capable. The removed equipment will be replaced with fully built and tested new equipment while the subscriber radios will receive a first touch to add P25 system information, and when that is operational and fully tested, the radios will later receive a second touch to delete the obsolete EDACS data.



According to the information I've gathered, the P25 migration is supposed to start with P25 Phase 1 trunking which will be in operation for about one year which will be used to shake down any and all RF coverage issues and then when it's proven to be working to standard, there will then be a quick transition to Phase II TDMA roughly a year after Phase 1 is implemented.



I think that it'd be logical for the system radios to receive both their Phase 1 and Phase 2 system data at the same time to avoid having to duplicate the considerable effort involved in reprogramming all subscriber radios. After a successful migration to Phase 2 then the radios could be touched again to delete the extraneous and obsolete personality data without any time constraints.



Giving credit where it's due, the County and CI have gone about the planning for this upgrade in a very deliberate, methodical manner. There is no rush. Although Harris has formally ended support for EDACS, the existing system is healthy and well maintained and the County has stockpiled plenty of spares to keep the system fully operational for longer than it'll actually be needed.



For that reason I expect that the transitions from EDACS to P1 and then to P2 will likely go quite smoothly. Proper Preparation Prevents Piss-Poor Performance.



Note, I am not an "insider" and I can not verify that this is precisely the planned migration path but it is correct according to the best I've been able to come up with from various sources including documents posted on the county's emergency management website.



Yeup. +1 for your continued insight on this system.

I’ve seen the same thing on my end. Looks and sounds like from the county documents that the core P25 VIDA infrastructure is being layed in concurrent with the running EDACS for a full cutover and not an intermediary upgrade; as you also stated. Biggest thing I know they’ve done recently past few months ago was add in the Beaches cell (if that’s the technical Harris terminology). Haven’t been listening lately to hear anything other than standard 1-5, 5-1 countdown testing for coverage mapping and such.


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rescue674aa

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Sorry I just think K4SVT and Elroy are very knowledgeable of what’s going on their county system.

Dustin


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TDR-94

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Yeup, I know exactly what you’re talking about but that’s not it. Palm Bay and somebody else smaller uses the XG-100’s and 75’s and I’ve heard their Audio profiles do that on transmit. You can spot them out easily without looking at the radio.

Same thing with a couple Melbourne officers. A couple of their packsets always have a distinct roving worble in the background of their audio.
Now THIS definitely sounds different.

I’m currently uploading another clip I took of the PSIC1 patch that routed in P25 clear audio from Flagler and St Johns if I’m not mistaken. Once uploaded I’ll link it to you so you can hear it and judge it against just normal audio profile background cancellation




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Well,to me it still sounds exactly like the NC. I know some users have inadvertently turned it on and it's been running full time. It's definitely not P25,you can't operate in P25 mode and EDACS mode at the same time with any iteration of these radios and you can't directly transmit P25 over EDACS to begin with. The systems aren't compatible.

Do any of the county radios even have a P25 personality programmed into them yet? I don't think they have even got to that point yet.

BTW, who was the moron in Brevard that originally coined the "packset" terminology that everyone still continually uses when referring to a handheld portable radio? I've only ever heard that term used for radio sets used in WW1 and they weren't handhelds! They fit into horse packs lol!
 
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