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  #61 (permalink)  
Old 08-03-2011, 11:53 AM
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What does RadioReference think? Also what does Scannercast and RadioFeed think about this?
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Old 08-03-2011, 5:55 PM
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I like what radioman2001 said... Public safety officials are doing the public's business and we darn well should be able to monitor what's going on. As I've said in other postings, monitoring your local PD can really give you a deeper understanding of your community and the people who "protect and serve" -- and I've gotta tell you, I never much appreciated the police force until I spent time listening to what they dealt with day-in and day-out. Now, they get all my respect.

A 2 hour delay is ridiculous. Seriously. It doesn't serve any purpose whatsoever. How many incidents are 2 hours long (answer, almost none)? We might as well just go back to the days of having to ask for the recordings under the FOIA.

My final comment: I'm not an expert in running an encrypted radio system, but I HAVE read a great deal from people who deal with this stuff on a day-to-day basis. It seems to me that smaller police departments seriously underestimate the overhead and the annoyance of implementing encryption. Dealing with keys (loading them and maintaining them) is a lot of work. The manufacturers make it sound like it's all a cake walk, but when you think through the scenarios, it's a royal PITA and if not done correctly can actually make communications HARDER, less secure, and even put lives at risk. OTAR and mixed clear/encrypted isn't necessarily the answer, either (what happens when you do a re-key and all the radios in the group aren't ON). Or, for safety purposes, you have channels that support mixed encrypted/non-encrypted traffic and a user unintentionally keys-up not encrypted and feels free to discuss sensitive details because "nobody can hear him that shouldn't."

Folks REALLY need to think through their decisions before going either fully or partially encrypted. And they need to talk with peers who run such systems in similarly sized departments, with similar requirements. Not JUST talk to the manufacturers, who make everything sound so great and easy.

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There is no "right to know" in real time. The public doesn't have access to all courtroom proceedings in real time, and in fact, in sensitive cases (child molestation, sex crimes, high profile subjects), the public is excluded from proceedings as they happen. There is some merit to the argument that real time access to everything can cause harm to innocent parties. Open records requests can reveal anything in question.

I am not advocating encryption, but it's a fact of life that many are going to find will be coming down the pike sooner than you may think. With the push by the FCC to narrowband, radio vendors are in high gear pushing relatively inexpensive digital radio systems (i.e. MotoTRBO and NXDN) that offer very affordable encryption options. Software encryption on Astro 25 costs less than 10 dollars a radio if you place a large order, and managing keys is no more headache than ordinary radio programming, as no special key loading devices or boards are needed.

The only disadvantage to encryption is the fact that there are so many incompatible formats and this locks out mutual aid responders from nearby jurisdictions from monitoring talkgroups/channels if their radios do not support the encryption utilized. Using the Astro 25 ADP example, a system that uses ADP (like Walton County, GA) prevents neighboring jurisdictions from talking on their Astro 25 system on said talkgroups with a Kenwood TK-5410 (as it doesn't support Astro 25 proprietary features). This limits and hinders interoperability, which is the whole selling point the Federal government, APCO and radio vendors have been cramming down our throats since 9/11.

Creating a delay in feed audio isn't a viable solution, the bottom line is a few isolated turds in the punch bowl have brought attention the availability of radio traffic on the Internet. The widely uneducated general public become SHOCKED that police radio is not private like "their cellphone calls are" and with some creative propaganda by their local officials who want to operate behind closed doors, and will convince their taxbase to pony up funds to replace perfectly functioning radio systems with new ones. All the time ignoring the needs of the actual users. With the FCC narrowband mandate just around the corner look for more of this to go into high gear, even in small towns and cities where such expensive replacements aren't needed or desired.

"They told us we need to buy digital radios because the FCC will turn us off in 2013 like the analog TV switch" and "We had to buy encryption because that's the only way the sell them"- these are actual quotes from Georgia public safety officials I heard at a state interoperability exercise in April.

the days of scanning may soon go the way of 8-track tapes and VCR's. It's happened in other places, ask anyone how much fun listening to scanner radios in the UK are since the Airwave system was brought online.
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Old 08-12-2011, 9:13 AM
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Concentrate on guns and intoxicated drivers if you are really interested in responder safety. I can only imagine who is really behind the push for encryption and feed delays.
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Old 08-12-2011, 1:20 PM
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Concentrate on guns and intoxicated drivers if you are really interested in responder safety. I can only imagine who is really behind the push for encryption and feed delays.
While I am not a supporter of delays or encryption, I am completely insulted by this statement. I am an EMT who works for the largest third service municipal EMS agency in New England, and I can attest it's not just the cops (when they actually show up to our calls) that have a vested interest in responder safety. Wrestle with one EDP who wants to kill you simply because you're in a uniform, and I'm sure you'll agree.
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Old 08-12-2011, 2:09 PM
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Police officer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Looking here at occupational hazards, I dont see any mention of "officer safety and scanner feeds"
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Old 08-12-2011, 2:26 PM
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Police officer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Looking here at occupational hazards, I dont see any mention of "officer safety and scanner feeds"
Once again, it's all about the cops.

Of course, now that you pointed out that it doesn't exist on Wikipedia A WEBSITE THAT CAN BE EDITED BY ANYONE WITH A WEB BROWSER I'm sure someone will add it, which of course, leads to the belief of "I read it on the internet, so it must be true. Nice going.
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Old 08-12-2011, 3:30 PM
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Wrestle with one EDP who wants to kill you simply because you're in a uniform, and I'm sure you'll agree.
Just curious how feed delays would change that?
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Old 08-12-2011, 4:07 PM
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Quote:
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Just curious how feed delays would change that?
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Originally Posted by Citywide173 View Post
While I am not a supporter of delays or encryption
Where did I say it would? I was just expressing my outrage at another poster's inferrence that it's all about the police. There are other responders out there who put their lives on the line, and they deserve just as much recognition. Where I work, the police tend not to go to calls, with either the dispatcher holding the call until it goes away, or the assigned unit never arriving on scene-kinda pisses one off to see them sensationalized.
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Last edited by Citywide173; 08-12-2011 at 4:12 PM.. Reason: elaborated
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Old 08-12-2011, 4:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Citywide173 View Post
While I am not a supporter of delays or encryption, I am completely insulted by this statement. I am an EMT who works for the largest third service municipal EMS agency in New England, and I can attest it's not just the cops (when they actually show up to our calls) that have a vested interest in responder safety. Wrestle with one EDP who wants to kill you simply because you're in a uniform, and I'm sure you'll agree.
What good would any feed delay do for that Emotionally Disturbed Person that wanted "to kill you simply because you're in a uniform"? They most likely wouldn't simply wait around listening to a feed on their iPhone waiting for someone in uniform to show up. They'd probably simply call 911 and report some kind of incident to get the PD & FD to come to their location. If they preferred a more "random" location they'd probably simply listen for the sirens and go to that location to start their trouble.

Where a feed delay may be of some use is in a "burglary in progress" call where the suspect might get word of the PD in route to their location, giving them advanced notice for them to flee. The issue there is that with an internet feed, there's already some delay, although not all that long. With that type of a call they're already planning to get out quickly so the feed really isn't that much help to them. Also with most feeds, the suspect has as much chance of getting some other channel's traffic as they are getting the dispatch to their address.

In incidents where there's real danger (hostage or other SWAT type of activity) the RR feed policy of "no dedicated SWAT, Tactical, Vice, Narcotics, etc. channels/talkgroups can be feed" handles that in many cases. In cases where that traffic is handled on the normally authorized channels/talkgroups due to the agency not moving to their dedicated channel(s), or possibly that they're small enough to not have dedicated channels, many of the feed providers opt to lock out than channel for the duration of the incident (as indicated by this thread http://forums.radioreference.com/liv...violation.html).
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Old 08-12-2011, 4:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Citywide173 View Post
Where did I say it would? I was just expressing my outrage at another poster's inferrence that it's all about the police. There are other responders out there who put their lives on the line, and they deserve just as much recognition. Where I work, the police tend not to go to calls, with either the dispatcher holding the call until it goes away, or the assigned unit never arriving on scene-kinda pisses one off to see them sensationalized.
It's not just the PD or even other responders that "put their lives on the line" while doing their jobs. Even utility meter readers get their share of danger, including getting shot at. Meter-reader shot by fearful homeowner | wfaa.com Dallas - Fort Worth
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Old 08-12-2011, 4:39 PM
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What good would any feed delay do for that Emotionally Disturbed Person that wanted "to kill you simply because you're in a uniform"? They most likely wouldn't simply wait around listening to a feed on their iPhone waiting for someone in uniform to show up. They'd probably simply call 911 and report some kind of incident to get the PD & FD to come to their location. If they preferred a more "random" location they'd probably simply listen for the sirens and go to that location to start their trouble.

Where a feed delay may be of some use is in a "burglary in progress" call where the suspect might get word of the PD in route to their location, giving them advanced notice for them to flee. The issue there is that with an internet feed, there's already some delay, although not all that long. With that type of a call they're already planning to get out quickly so the feed really isn't that much help to them. Also with most feeds, the suspect has as much chance of getting some other channel's traffic as they are getting the dispatch to their address.

In incidents where there's real danger (hostage or other SWAT type of activity) the RR feed policy of "no dedicated SWAT, Tactical, Vice, Narcotics, etc. channels/talkgroups can be feed" handles that in many cases. In cases where that traffic is handled on the normally authorized channels/talkgroups due to the agency not moving to their dedicated channel(s), or possibly that they're small enough to not have dedicated channels, many of the feed providers opt to lock out than channel for the duration of the incident (as indicated by this thread http://forums.radioreference.com/liv...violation.html).
Like I said, doesn't make a difference in my neck of the woods. "In progress" means nothing to the cops. I've ended up in situations that I shouldn't have been in because the police either didn't show up, or made it an EMS call to make it go away, and put a dangerous person in the back of my truck, "because it's obviously a medical condition", and then didn't even follow us to the hospital. A delay applied to a system that already delays their responses does nothing. As far as the meter reader, I didn't read the link, but as an employee of a private company who is most likely viewed as a trespasser, it's apples and oranges.

I'm in the same union as the cops.....should give you an idea how big this issue is.
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Old 08-12-2011, 4:46 PM
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Where did I say it would? I was just expressing my outrage at another poster's inferrence that it's all about the police.
When it comes to feed delays, that's the only group I've heard it mentioned about. That's why your response was confusing to me. No biggie.
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Old 08-12-2011, 10:10 PM
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A feed for Chicago Police Zone 4 recently stopped appearing on Radio Reference. I am interested in providing this stream. I have a spare a PC and no shortage of radios.

The last thing I want to do is jeopardize the safety of our first responders. For better or worse, the availability of internet streams has lowered the barriers to entry for monitoring radio communications. I find the streams very useful for monitoring public safety in the vicinity of my business; however, I suspect that there are some people with nefarious intent that also make use of the streams.

I have been unsuccessful in my searches for a streaming buffer of some sort which would enable me to add a delay (10mins?) to a feed. Has anyone achieved this? Are there any first responders who would like to chime in on the usefulness of such a thing?
If they don't want others to hear it then they'lll use encryption. If it's safe for others to hear then they'll use clear audio. The rule about what you hear on scanner you can't tell anyone else means just that, you can't listen to the audio then tell others. But there's nothing prohibiting you from broadcasting the audio itself over live internet stream.
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Old 08-29-2011, 12:06 AM
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I am in public safety and purposely do not provide police feeds in my area because of the increase in use by smart phones. If people had to be next to a computer to listen then it would be fine but any joe blow can pull up a live feed and listen on their phone. A feed delay for police needs to be implemented on the client side or I see agencies going to encrypted radio traffic.
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Old 08-29-2011, 12:35 AM
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I will say that because there isn't a delay option available, I have surrendered my feed a month or two ago. Hopefully we will see these features some day!
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Old 08-30-2011, 1:05 PM
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I'm sure some of the people out there use their phones for nefarious purposes. But let's put this in perspective. Most dispatch systems have 10 codes, signals, unit designations, and some are more complicated than that. The average [dumb] criminal is not going to take the time to learn all that stuff.

I am friends with a couple local police officers and I know for a fact they've caught a few people that were listening to my feed. That in and of itself ought to show that it's really not that useful--if they were caught, it didn't do any good for them. My friends were also not concerned I was streaming dispatch channels.

There's also a delay of 15+ seconds when you're listening through RR. That's an eternity if someone's trying to find you on foot or in a car.

What's the point of listening to a feed that's delayed anyway? I don't see that being particularly fun or useful.

Edit: I think forcing people to get RR accounts to use apps that use the api would make sense and cut down on this some.

Last edited by mk262; 08-30-2011 at 1:10 PM..
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Old 08-30-2011, 8:01 PM
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I've mentioned it before and I'll mention it again.

How many feeds actually sit on ONE DEDICATED CHANNEL?

With that in mind, gee it sure would be hard for the "bad guys" to track what was going on, given that they have no control over holding a scanner feed on one particular frequency/talkgroup. Sure, they might get bits and pieces but in most cases they won't be monitoring the entire conversation.

While it doesn't ruin my day to have the existing delay, and wouldn't if there was one of a few minutes, this is really much adieu about nothing in most cases.
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Old 08-30-2011, 9:46 PM
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http://forums.radioreference.com/mas...ml#post1603049

You might want to take a peek at this item - it involves the fundamental right of the public to keep tabs on government activities
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Old 08-30-2011, 9:50 PM
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it involves the fundamental right of the public to keep tabs on government activities
It does, but it has nothing to do with scanning or streaming. So doesn't really apply at all.
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Old 08-31-2011, 2:56 AM
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I've mentioned it before and I'll mention it again.

How many feeds actually sit on ONE DEDICATED CHANNEL?

With that in mind, gee it sure would be hard for the "bad guys" to track what was going on, given that they have no control over holding a scanner feed on one particular frequency/talkgroup. Sure, they might get bits and pieces but in most cases they won't be monitoring the entire conversation.

While it doesn't ruin my day to have the existing delay, and wouldn't if there was one of a few minutes, this is really much adieu about nothing in most cases.
I'll take it you never had a feed where they "clear the air" meaning they put out an audible tone to remind people to not talk on the radio. With a delay (impossible to follow 4 very busy channels without one), it will sit on that one channel until the air is no longer cleared. I realize most people don't need a delay and would like to complain that one isn't needed, but that still isn't the point of this thread. The point is to try to get a feature, not say one isn't needed!
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