stirring the pot - rumors of an ESK scanner...

[mlevin]

I like how it says that is's absolutely essential to make such a scanner. Also, what's IMBE Provoice? I thoughtb they where two different things. If IMBE is Provoice, then shouldn't any other digital scanner be able to work.

[Voyager]

Originally Posted by mlevin

I like how it says that is's absolutely essential to make such a scanner. Also, what's IMBE Provoice? I thoughtb they where two different things. If IMBE is Provoice, then shouldn't any other digital scanner be able to work.

IMBE = Improved Multiband Excitation

It doesn't necessarily refer to any specific format - just a scheme.

Think of it this way: IMBE = Hamburger, while you have Whoppers, Big Macs, Triples, etc. (ALA P25, ProVoice, VSELP, Etc)

Joe M.

[Thayne]

ProVoice is IMBE; but a different "Flavor" than APCO-25. Believe me it has been decoded with A PC, but nobody cares to get sued, so we might as well leave it at that. I am sure if money could be made a scanner will come out for it--

If Mo keeps his shoes on I will be sure to ration the Coronas

[Voyager]

Originally Posted by Thayne

ProVoice is IMBE; but a different "Flavor" than APCO-25. Believe me it has been decoded with A PC, but nobody cares to get sued, so we might as well leave it at that. I am sure if money could be made a scanner will come out for it--

It doesn't matter if there is money to be made or not. If M/A-Com doesn't want to release the rights, it won't get made - period. If it is made, M/A-Com will own the company that decided to market it - EVEN if it's Uniden, RS/GRE, AOR, or Icom.

Joe M.

[mlevin]

Originally Posted by Thayne

ProVoice is IMBE; but a different "Flavor" than APCO-25. Believe me it has been decoded with A PC, but nobody cares to get sued, so we might as well leave it at that. I am sure if money could be made a scanner will come out for it--

If Mo keeps his shoes on I will be sure to ration the Coronas

Ahh okay. I was always under the impression that IMBE is APCO25, and provoice was just another kind of digital, not another kind of IMBE.

What's with you and the coronas. Besides I'm not one for alcoholic beverages (I've tasted for religious ceremonies). I'm underage anyways

[JohnWayne]

I highly doubt that any ESK-capable scanner will be coming along any time soon. ESK is a highly-guarded proprietary technology. Also, it is not as simple as entering 1 of 256 possible values in to a field and having it work. To program ESK in to a real radio requires several pieces of hardware and software which are expensive and not sold to just anyone. Here is an excerpt:

M/A-COM’s EDACS Security Key (ESK) feature provides a method to prevent unauthorized use of EDACS radio systems and modification of EDACS radio personalities. This optional system feature allows a customer to define one or more security key variables that are used to encode the over-the-air communications between the radio and a radio network, and limit access to radio programming functionality. This encoding has the affect of making the radio network invisible to radios without the proper Key. Depending on radio network security requirements, sites can be programmed with different keys to create security zones. Radios may be programmed with multiple keys to allow interoperability between zones when necessary. Keys from "foreign" networks may also be programmed into radios to allow these radios to communicate on disconnected networks that are also using the ESK feature.

Keys are stored in a secure environment and protected using Key Card technology. The Key Card is a credit card-sized plastic card with an embedded microcomputer chip that is capable of operating independently from the host computer to which it may be attached. This tamper-resistant Key Card provides two-factor user authentication, and an on-board cryptographic engine to protect unauthorized access to the encoded security keys. These cards are used to transport and install the security key(s) in the radio personality and to introduce the key to the sites.

M/A-COM’s ESK Administrator software provides security personnel with the tools to create and manage the EDACS Security Key variables and necessary Key Cards. This application is wizard driven for ease of use. Multiple Keys can easily be encoded in minutes.
All EDACS administration and programming software (ProGrammer, ProFile Manager, and CSD) that handle EDACS Security Keys utilizes a Key Card Reader and proprietary software to access the Key Cards. When accompanied by a password, two-factor authentication is used to secure the keys from unauthorized use.

Users are people within different segments of the EDACS environment who use other programming applications, such as ProGrammer, CSD or ProFile Manager. Users will receive the User Password, which is the password to access the Key Card, and Key Card from the EDACS Security Key Administrator to implement the ESK feature.

As you can see, MA-Com is pretty serious about the security of EDACS Security Key.

Jeff

[Voyager]

Originally Posted by JohnWayne

I highly doubt that any ESK-capable scanner will be coming along any time soon. ESK is a highly-guarded proprietary technology. Also, it is not as simple as entering 1 of 256 possible values in to a field and having it work.

(big snip)

While that looks great for a 'brag file', hasn't ESK been 'hacked' already by the Trunker types, and was found to have a possibility of 256 values?

As I said before, ESK is a relative 'peanuts' compared with ProVoice. Since only PV systems are currently using ESK, what does it matter that a scanner can (or could) do ESK. You still won't see PV in a scanner unless M/A-Com (are they still called that this week? ) grants a license to allow a manufacturer use their proprietary code in their product.

It takes a lot to program ANY trunked radio relative to the same scheme in a scanner, so that's a moot point. We don't need to worry about systems access, authentication, or any of the matters that make programming transceivers a pain.

And let's face it, if there are only 256 'key' combinations, as has been posted, it's quite easy to have the unit automate the selection. How many different IR codes are there? Yet, you see universal remotes on the market.

Joe M.

[Thayne]

Hey Mo, I guess the Corona thing must be a fetish or something. Please don't take it to heart. When I was a kid I had a thing for Twinkies until I had too many and barfed. After that it was Hamms beer, same result--

As far as what voyager said about ProVoice, I agree; but I think what might happen is that because most radios are software configured, someone (Not the manufacturer) might just release a configuration for say a PRO-96 that would enable it to do ProVoice.

[Voyager]

Originally Posted by Thayne

As far as what voyager said about ProVoice, I agree; but I think what might happen is that because most radios are software configured, someone (Not the manufacturer) might just release a configuration for say a PRO-96 that would enable it to do ProVoice.

<snipped by author> AKA... OOOPS! ops:

[Thayne]

I guess I don't follow you about LTR. ProVoice is just EDACS with a proprietary IMBE implementation, right?? I don't thnk LTR is involved. Of course ESK will throw off any any scanner, but ETRUNK can be easily modified to follow it.

[N_Jay]

Originally Posted by mlevin

Ahh okay. I was always under the impression that IMBE is APCO25, and provoice was just another kind of digital, not another kind of IMBE.

What's with you and the coronas. Besides I'm not one for alcoholic beverages (I've tasted for religious ceremonies). I'm underage anyways

Didn't we go through this in anothet thread.

A digital system is defined by its;
vocoder family,
vocoder speed,
Vocoder version (sometimes),
Channel Coding,
and a few other atributes.

Not just one think like IMBE (vocoder family)

Go to the TIA online page and look at the number of individual specifications that make up P25!

[Voyager]

Originally Posted by Thayne

I guess I don't follow you about LTR. ProVoice is just EDACS with a proprietary IMBE implementation, right?? I don't thnk LTR is involved. Of course ESK will throw off any any scanner, but ETRUNK can be easily modified to follow it.

Ooops! I confused LTR and EDACS.

So, yes, I would agree that a hack is possible. Not likely, but possible.

Joe M.

[blantonl]

Just to clarify.

ProVoice and APCO-25 use the EXACT SAME IMBE VOCODER. The same one. It works the same. The license is the same. It is the same vocoder. Did I mention that they are the same vocoder? It is the same.

The differences between the two digital voice formats is how the information is transmitted over the air (modulated).

The vocoder does nothing more than convert analog audio into a compressed stream of 1s and 0s. That SAME PROCESS happens for P25 systems, and for ProVoice systems. However, those 1s and 0s must be transmitted over the air. This is where the difference between the P25 standard and ProVoice differ.

MA/COM believes they have the superior solution to transmitting the vocoder information over the air. Their solution for doing this is proprietary. The Project 25 standard believes they have the superior solution -- their standard is there for all to see in the TIA documents.

[blantonl]

Originally Posted by Voyager

Ooops! I confused LTR and EDACS.

So, yes, I would agree that a hack is possible. Not likely, but possible.

Joe M.

There is already a version of etrunker that supports esk. It is available in the downloads section of this site.

T4win also already supports ESK.

So not only is it possible, and like, it is available.

[N_Jay]

Originally Posted by blantonl

Just to clarify.

ProVoice and APCO-25 use the EXACT SAME IMBE VOCODER. The same one. It works the same. The license is the same. It is the same vocoder. Did I mention that they are the same vocoder? It is the same.

The differences between the two digital voice formats is how the information is transmitted over the air (modulated).

The vocoder does nothing more than convert analog audio into a compressed stream of 1s and 0s. That SAME PROCESS happens for P25 systems, and for ProVoice systems. However, those 1s and 0s must be transmitted over the air. This is where the difference between the P25 standard and ProVoice differ.

MA/COM believes they have the superior solution to transmitting the vocoder information over the air. Their solution for doing this is proprietary. The Project 25 standard believes they have the superior solution -- their standard is there for all to see in the TIA documents.

Interesting. You sure? Not doubting you, just would lik eto know where to find the info.

As for the differences in both channel coding and modulation, yes you are right.

[Voyager]

Originally Posted by blantonl

There is already a version of etrunker that supports esk. It is available in the downloads section of this site.

T4win also already supports ESK.

So not only is it possible, and like, it is available.

The discussion was about a hack for the PRO-96 to receive it. That is possible, but most definitley not currently available.

Joe M.

[Thayne]

What is the best way to let a cat out of a bag?

Shake it out, or let it crawl out by itself?

[milf]

LOL! Depending how big the cat is..... BIG CAT,.. set the bag down and walk quickly away! I couldn't resist after sitting here with my nieces and watching animal planet and that CRAZYYYYYYYYYYY Steve-O!

[precoislen]

The admins of sanantoniofire.org have updated the website to reflect the scanner issues discussed in the start of this thread.