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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 11-13-2011, 12:23 AM
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Default Forney (Kaufman Co) PD Freqs?

Hi,
I have been looking for forney, tx (kaufman co) new digi freq for PD
and system type, but am having no luck whatsoever.
The analog feed has been off for about two weeks now, and they are
totally digital, or rebranded, i dont really understand the difference.
Any chance anyone could assist in obtaining the frequency?

Places I have looked:
Kaufman County, Texas (TX) Scanner Frequencies and Radio Frequency Reference
Texas Wide Area Radio Network (TxWARN) Project 25 Trunking System, Various, Texas - Scanner Frequencies
Texas Wide Area Radio Network (TxWARN) Project 25 Trunking System, Various, Texas - Scanner Frequencies
Texas Wide Area Radio Network (TxWARN) Project 25 Trunking System, Various, Texas - Scanner Frequencies
(downloaded the pdf's and csv's as well from above)

What I have:
rs pro-106.

What I dont have:
win500
programming cable
a clue

Thanks for any help.
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Old 11-13-2011, 6:18 AM
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Unhappy MotoTRBO

The frequencies you are looking for can be found at this link:
WQOD810 (FORNEY, CITY OF) FCC Callsign Details. (you need to be logged in to view)

Unfortunately with an emission designator of 7K60F7W, this means they have gone to MotoTRBO, and cannot be monitored with a scanner. It also means they cannot be monitored by any other LEA in the area. I have already heard DPS 1, several DPS troopers, and Kaufman County Sherrif's deputies complain about their system. I actually heard the KCSO dispatcher having to relay information to a deputy while talking to Forney dispatcher on the phone.(great interoperability) Once in a while you'll still hear the lone traffic stop or fire dispatch on the old channels, but for the most part, unless you have a scanner with a discriminator output, a Linux box, DSD running, alot of patience, and they are not encrypted, Forney is now among the silent. There is still alot of other good listening in Kaufman county though. There's plenty of traffic on DPS channels, KCSO, Terrell PD/FD, TXWARN, etc. In fact I was listening to police traffic from Tomball(North Harris CO) the other night on TXWARN. As far as help with programming your scanner, I am not familiar with the Radio Shack stuff. All my scanners are Uniden, but there is a wealth of information in the forums and in the WIKI on just about anything you want to know about scanners, scanning, etc.
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Old 11-13-2011, 4:44 PM
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Thanks so much for your reply. I had a feeling that is what was happening. I have also heard total coms failures between other LE and forney pd. Most scary was a careflight trying to land at an accident that had no way to communicate with ground. I was hoping they would just do the p25 system like most others.

My old uniden bearcat has been on in the background for about 20 years on forney pd channel. I kinda miss the background chatter. Their fire channel is still analog, as is kauf co SO, as you mentioned.

Is this similar to the situation in mckinney? If i understood that thread correctly, they are trying to undo (or redo) their comms due to lack of interoperability?
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Old 11-14-2011, 1:15 AM
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ALL digital radios, including MOTOTRBO models, can be programmed with analog channels. The "totoal coms failures" between an aircraft and ground personnel would have had nothing to do with 'technology'. That was brought about by lack of proper 'procedures'. That's where the vast majority of 'total coms failures' occur, when it comes to interoperability.

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma


Quote:
Originally Posted by bigtex999 View Post
Thanks so much for your reply. I had a feeling that is what was happening. I have also heard total coms failures between other LE and forney pd. Most scary was a careflight trying to land at an accident that had no way to communicate with ground. I was hoping they would just do the p25 system like most others.

My old uniden bearcat has been on in the background for about 20 years on forney pd channel. I kinda miss the background chatter. Their fire channel is still analog, as is kauf co SO, as you mentioned.

Is this similar to the situation in mckinney? If i understood that thread correctly, they are trying to undo (or redo) their comms due to lack of interoperability?
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Old 11-14-2011, 9:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRayfield View Post
...The "totoal coms failures" between an aircraft and ground personnel would have had nothing to do with 'technology'. That was brought about by lack of proper 'procedures'. ...
Perhaps, but since you weren't there let me speculate on a more probable cause. How about the communication specialist who sold/installed this system failed to point out the holes in the idea of a completely proprietary system being used where no one else is using it. Or, even if they did point it out, not making sure that radios were programmed with interoperability channels. Procedures can only be implemented when the technology allows them. And, before you say it is not the fault of the vendor, it is indeed the fault of the vendor as the vendor is the expert in this situation and the user/buyer is the client.
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Old 11-14-2011, 10:24 AM
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You assumed something that I didn't say. I never said that it was not the 'fault of the vendor'. I said that it was a lack of proper procedures, versus the 'technology' itself. Most people tend to assume that when an agency moves to something like MOTOTRBO, that there is no way of attaining interoperability anymore, due to the technology. That is far from the truth.

In this case, 'lack of procedures' could easily include the lack of the radios being programmed with analog interoperability channels, which could be because of the end user not wanting them (I've actually heard a police chief in my area state that he did not want the VTAC channels programmed in his radios), or a 'failure' of the company that programmed the radios to think of including these channels in the digital radios.

Again, my point was that any digital equipment (including MOTOTRBO) can easily support interoperability through analog channels, and thus the failure to have interoperability is not a result of the 'technology' itself.

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma


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Originally Posted by loumaag View Post
Perhaps, but since you weren't there let me speculate on a more probable cause. How about the communication specialist who sold/installed this system failed to point out the holes in the idea of a completely proprietary system being used where no one else is using it. Or, even if they did point it out, not making sure that radios were programmed with interoperability channels. Procedures can only be implemented when the technology allows them. And, before you say it is not the fault of the vendor, it is indeed the fault of the vendor as the vendor is the expert in this situation and the user/buyer is the client.
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Old 11-14-2011, 9:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loumaag View Post
Perhaps, but since you weren't there let me speculate on a more probable cause. How about the communication specialist who sold/installed this system failed to point out the holes in the idea of a completely proprietary system being used where no one else is using it. Or, even if they did point it out, not making sure that radios were programmed with interoperability channels. Procedures can only be implemented when the technology allows them. And, before you say it is not the fault of the vendor, it is indeed the fault of the vendor as the vendor is the expert in this situation and the user/buyer is the client.

Yep, that seems to be the case with other sales folks as well. It's a get in,
sell them, and get out before they know what has hit them. ANY time the
Government "mandates" anything, they screw it up, LOL! FUBAR!

GOD BLESS,
Warmest Regard,
"Brother Don"/KA5LQJ
Just across the line in beautiful downtown Blanchard, LA.
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Old 11-14-2011, 10:03 PM
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By the way, the DMR system for which the City of Forney is licensed, is not 'a completely proprietary system'. Conventional DMR (such as conventional MOTOTRBO) is a standard and there are many manufacturers of DMR equipment, all over the world. There are also more and more public safety agencies, all over the U.S., that are starting to use DMR. This idea that it's "proprietary" is simply not true.

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma

Quote:
Originally Posted by loumaag View Post
Perhaps, but since you weren't there let me speculate on a more probable cause. How about the communication specialist who sold/installed this system failed to point out the holes in the idea of a completely proprietary system being used where no one else is using it. Or, even if they did point it out, not making sure that radios were programmed with interoperability channels. Procedures can only be implemented when the technology allows them. And, before you say it is not the fault of the vendor, it is indeed the fault of the vendor as the vendor is the expert in this situation and the user/buyer is the client.
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Old 11-15-2011, 8:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRayfield View Post
By the way, the DMR system for which the City of Forney is licensed, is not 'a completely proprietary system'. Conventional DMR (such as conventional MOTOTRBO) is a standard and there are many manufacturers of DMR equipment, all over the world. There are also more and more public safety agencies, all over the U.S., that are starting to use DMR. This idea that it's "proprietary" is simply not true.

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma
Forgive me for my ignorance, as I have not had the time or justification to learn about NexEDGE or TRBO, but don't you have to have a code to even access the audio? Or is there a TRBO version of carrier squelch?
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Old 11-15-2011, 9:21 PM
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If using a radio to monitor a MOTOTRBO system, then yes, you need to know the Group ID as well as the Color Code. I haven't tried the DSD software yet, so I'm not sure how it works. It may be possible to monitor audio with it, without knowing these 'codes'.

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma

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Originally Posted by rattlerbb01 View Post
Forgive me for my ignorance, as I have not had the time or justification to learn about NexEDGE or TRBO, but don't you have to have a code to even access the audio? Or is there a TRBO version of carrier squelch?
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Old 11-17-2011, 4:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRayfield View Post
If using a radio to monitor a MOTOTRBO system, then yes, you need to know the Group ID as well as the Color Code. I haven't tried the DSD software yet, so I'm not sure how it works. It may be possible to monitor audio with it, without knowing these 'codes'.

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma
I just got the DSD software up and running yesterday, and I get a fairly decent voice decode of Forney's system without any codes or group ID's. Just start the program and wait for traffic(after alot of tweaking).

I am not sure exactly what type of TRBO system it is(standard, connect plus, or capacity plus). It has a single frequency and sends a 3 to 5 second data burst about 1 to 2 minutes apart whether there is voice traffic or not.

Here is a sample of what DSD shows:
Sync: no sync
Sync: -DMR mod: C4FM inlvl: 72% slot0 [slot1] Unknown burst type: 1101
Sync: -DMR mod: C4FM inlvl: 58% slot0 [slot1] VOICE Header
Sync: -DMR mod: C4FM inlvl: 47% [slot0] slot1 Slot idle
Sync: -DMR mod: C4FM inlvl: 43% slot0 [slot1] Slot idle
Sync: -DMR mod: GFSK inlvl: 46% [slot0] slot1 PI Header
Sync: -DMR mod: GFSK inlvl: 46% slot0 [slot1] Slot idle
Sync: -DMR mod: GFSK inlvl: 47% [slot0] slot1 VOICE Header
Sync: -DMR mod: GFSK inlvl: 47% slot0 [slot1] Slot idle
Sync: -DMR mod: GFSK inlvl: 48% [slot0] slot1 VOICE Header
Sync: -DMR mod: GFSK inlvl: 49% slot0 [slot1] Slot idle
Sync: -DMR mod: GFSK inlvl: 48% [SLOT0] slot1 VOICE e:
Sync: -DMR mod: GFSK inlvl: 46% [SLOT0] slot1 VOICE e:
Sync: -DMR mod: GFSK inlvl: 46% [SLOT0] slot1 VOICE e:
Sync: -DMR mod: GFSK inlvl: 46% [SLOT0] slot1 VOICE e:=
Sync: -DMR mod: GFSK inlvl: 48% [SLOT0] slot1 VOICE e:
Sync: -DMR mod: GFSK inlvl: 47% [slot0] slot1 TLC
Sync: -DMR mod: GFSK inlvl: 49% slot0 [slot1] Slot idle
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Old 11-19-2011, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikelock View Post
The frequencies you are looking for can be found at this link:
WQOD810 (FORNEY, CITY OF) FCC Callsign Details. (you need to be logged in to view)

Unfortunately with an emission designator of 7K60F7W, this means they have gone to MotoTRBO, and cannot be monitored with a scanner. It also means they cannot be monitored by any other LEA in the area.
Incorrect - They are running an inter-op box to KCSO and other agencies. This works for inter-oping TRBO to P25 and TRBO to Analog, but when they are using it they are using the full 12.5 khz and lose some functionality of the TRBO system. I am building two Public Safety radio systems in North Texas which will be MotoTRBO that will use these to access local public safety channels which are not TDMA. they work quite well and are reasonably priced. Additionally the new APX-7500's are dual mode, FDMA/TDMA for this purpose. AND there is a radio out there that will do both DMR TDMA and P25 FDMA much like a dual band Amateur HT (I just for the life of me can't remember who makes it but I think its Chinese) If KV5E wanders in here he can shed more light on these, I believe he owns one.
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Old 11-19-2011, 10:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikelock View Post
I am not sure exactly what type of TRBO system it is(standard, connect plus, or capacity plus).
It's Capacity Plus. Pretty standard only a $1,200.00 upgrade. Just about all TRBO users purchase this with the system.
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Old 11-20-2011, 5:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxTracker View Post
Incorrect - They are running an inter-op box to KCSO and other agencies. This works for inter-oping TRBO to P25 and TRBO to Analog, but when they are using it they are using the full 12.5 khz and lose some functionality of the TRBO system.
I stand corrected, but, it would seem that they don't know how to use it, or don't like using it. Because, where I used to hear KCSO just flip over to their channel and talk directly to the officers or dispatcher, I now hear the KCSO officer ask their dispatcher to ask the Forney dispatcher to ask the Forney officer for information. I have actually heard this several times since they went to this system, and I don't hear KCSO or DPS on the Forney channel anymore.

Some of my feelings are from the fact that DMR is ruining our beloved hobby, but I do have a genuine concern about the communications failures that can possibly arise with all of these systems popping up.

Wow, how did we get here from the OP's question?
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Old 11-20-2011, 4:39 PM
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And "interop-boxes" that tie into the MOTOTRBO systems at the IP-level work even better (the JPS units don't do this). With these 'IP systems', you can't even tell that you're on two different systems (other than the clear audio from the digital side).

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxTracker View Post
Incorrect - They are running an inter-op box to KCSO and other agencies. This works for inter-oping TRBO to P25 and TRBO to Analog, but when they are using it they are using the full 12.5 khz and lose some functionality of the TRBO system. I am building two Public Safety radio systems in North Texas which will be MotoTRBO that will use these to access local public safety channels which are not TDMA. they work quite well and are reasonably priced. Additionally the new APX-7500's are dual mode, FDMA/TDMA for this purpose. AND there is a radio out there that will do both DMR TDMA and P25 FDMA much like a dual band Amateur HT (I just for the life of me can't remember who makes it but I think its Chinese) If KV5E wanders in here he can shed more light on these, I believe he owns one.
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Old 11-20-2011, 5:46 PM
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Wow, another MaxTracker post full of disinformation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxTracker View Post
Incorrect - They are running an inter-op box to KCSO and other agencies.
Incorrect. They have *no* interoperability solution in place at this time. The old analog repeaters are still operating, and fire is still on analog, as the TRBO system is still having teething problems. And the link you provided is a BS BearCom link with a picture of a JPS NXU... which is a point-to-point IP interconnect, not a TRBO to analog gateway.
At this point, the analog repeater will remain on the air for paging purposes; however, they are looking into other alerting technologies (like cell-phone based stuff - which is wonderful until the big one hits).

Currently, our interoperability plan is for Forney to move their fire operations to Texas Fire 1-3 if they call for mutual aid from neighboring departments. We haven't worked out what we're going to do if we go fill in for them, other than hope that someone left a radio laying around the station that we can borrow.

Quote:
This works for inter-oping TRBO to P25 and TRBO to Analog, but when they are using it they are using the full 12.5 khz and lose some functionality of the TRBO system.
The MTR3000s support dynamic mixed mode, but only in single-site repeat. There is no option for mixed mode when using any of the fancier system types, like Capacity Plus.

Quote:
I am building two Public Safety radio systems in North Texas which will be MotoTRBO that will use these to access local public safety channels which are not TDMA. they work quite well and are reasonably priced. Additionally the new APX-7500's are dual mode, FDMA/TDMA for this purpose.
The APX family is dual-mode FDMA and TDMA to allow functionality on P25 Phase 1, P25 Phase 2, and Motorola's "F2" not-really-phase-2 TDMA solution. The APX family has *zero* capability on a TRBO system.
Why would you need any sort of interoperability gateway to allow your subscribers to operate on non-TDMA public safety channels? All TRBO subscribers support wide and narrowband analog operation out of the box.

Quote:
AND there is a radio out there that will do both DMR TDMA and P25 FDMA much like a dual band Amateur HT (I just for the life of me can't remember who makes it but I think its Chinese) If KV5E wanders in here he can shed more light on these, I believe he owns one.
The Unication radios? As far as I know, they aren't dual-mode in one radio. Craig has two that are DMR and was talking about a P25 variant.
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Old 11-20-2011, 5:47 PM
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Originally Posted by mikelock View Post
I stand corrected, but, it would seem that they don't know how to use it, or don't like using it. Because, where I used to hear KCSO just flip over to their channel and talk directly to the officers or dispatcher, I now hear the KCSO officer ask their dispatcher to ask the Forney dispatcher to ask the Forney officer for information. I have actually heard this several times since they went to this system, and I don't hear KCSO or DPS on the Forney channel anymore.

Some of my feelings are from the fact that DMR is ruining our beloved hobby, but I do have a genuine concern about the communications failures that can possibly arise with all of these systems popping up.

Wow, how did we get here from the OP's question?
As someone who routinely responds to Forney on mutual aid calls, I'm very concerned too!
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Old 11-20-2011, 11:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikelock View Post
I stand corrected, but, it would seem that they don't know how to use it, or don't like using it. Because, where I used to hear KCSO just flip over to their channel and talk directly to the officers or dispatcher, I now hear the KCSO officer ask their dispatcher to ask the Forney dispatcher to ask the Forney officer for information. I have actually heard this several times since they went to this system, and I don't hear KCSO or DPS on the Forney channel anymore.
I also continue to hear KCSO and DPS asking their dispatch to call forney dispatch for specific information and I find that frustrating and dangerous. From the posts above, whether or not interop is actually do-able on the mototrbo system, it has not yet actually been done. Cellphones are certainly not an answer.

The public is a valuable tool to a local police department. Encrypting routine communications, or making them otherwise unavailable to the public, especially in the case of mutual aid as mentioned above, to me, gives the appearance of impropriety or wanting to hide otherwise public information.

Thanks for great replies!

Last edited by bigtex999; 11-20-2011 at 11:18 PM.. Reason: typo
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Old 11-20-2011, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvsjr View Post
They have *no* interoperability solution in place at this time.
That's very interesting, and obviously confirms what we already knew. What is even more interesting is a conversation I had with a forney pd "communications officer" regarding the new system. When I asked if there were any interoperability issues, I was advised "absolutely none, works perfectly". I simply bit my tongue at that point.
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Old 11-21-2011, 12:11 PM
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Talking Unication U3

Unication U3 has the following:

Analog / DVOA
Analog / DVOA / P25
Analog / DVOA / DMR Tier 2/3

Variants for purchase. They have not put P25 and DMR in a single package yet.

The DVOA is their 4FSK digital voice with a proprietary vocoder that works well through analog repeaters.

DMR meets the emission mask and some folks go that way because the $$$ is limited, although they could go P25 if they had better folks in the drivers' seats for their funding.

Now instead of inversion scrambling when the dispatcher needs some cigarettes, they will have DMR with 40 bit ADP......

Having DMR will bite all in the *** some day when they should be P25 CAI.....mark my words all except for the DMR pimps here.

Craig
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