Waco-McLennan County TSY Question

[Ensnared]

Today, I was attempting to understand Unitrunker. So, I set the radio into analyze mode and activated Unitrunker for the Waco/McClennan County TSY.

When I observed the system frequencies, I found the following information that did not correspond with the RR DB. The RR DB current shows 12 system frequencies with 5 CC in red.

The Unitrunker shows:

LCN 120 854.0125
LCN 209 856.2375
LCN 220 856.5125
LCN 230 856.7625
LCN 277 857.9375
LCN 310 858.7625
LCN 317 858.9375
LCN 357 859.9375 CC

Why is there a discrepancy between what I am seeing in the RR DB and the Unitrunker information? In other words, why are there 8 frequencies showing when the RR DB shows 12?

[Russell]

Some of the "old" frequencies may have been moved to P25 system to handle the traffic. When this system finally does go away, we do not alter the old systems on their way out the door as we don't want to lose any of the old data (channel names, usages, etc.). However, in this specific case, I'll bet the missing frequencies moved with Waco city groups over to the P25 system.

[Ensnared]

Originally Posted by Russell

Some of the "old" frequencies may have been moved to P25 system to handle the traffic. When this system finally does go away, we do not alter the old systems on their way out the door as we don't want to lose any of the old data (channel names, usages, etc.). However, in this specific case, I'll bet the missing frequencies moved with Waco city groups over to the P25 system.

When I checked the RR DB for the Waco TxWarn P25 site, none of the system frequences matched those listed in the Waco/McClennan County TSY.

So, this is something I need to investigate further.

I read what you said about not wanting to lose information from the old system, but I don't see any of the old frequences in TxWarn P25 for Waco.

Therefore, I am going to run Pro-96Com on the TxWarn P25 and check them also.

[Ensnared]

Today, here is what I am seeing on TxWarn P25 for the Waco location:

851.425 i
851.925 d
852.100 d PVT data
853.50 d
853.65 d
853.9875 d
855.2125 iv
856.2125 v
857.2125 av
857.2625 av
858.2125 av
859.2125 c control

The PVT data has been bouncing around. I did see this surface on the screen for 851.425, CWID WGM6508

All of these system frequencies correspond with the RR DB for this system.

So, I hope this helps. I will continue to run Pro96 on the TxWarn P25-Waco and Unitrunker for the Waco-McClennan County TSY.

Based on what I found for the Waco/McLennan County Analog System, I have loaded only those frequencies in the Win500 systems frequency section. I kept all of my TG's.

[Jay911]

Unitrunker reports what it receives from the control channel data. It's possible that the system is using a different band plan than the normal band plan, and if this is the case, Unitrunker would report incorrect frequencies.

Does the frequency you've tuned on the scanner (by the way, it's TSYS, not TSY - it stands for Trunked SYStem object) match one of the frequencies in red on the Unitrunker screen? If so, you know at least that one is right.

On the Unitrunker screen, on the toolbar at the top, there is an icon which looks like a calculator. Click on it and the screen will change to show the frequencies you have logged, with several different columns of frequencies off to the right. This is Unitrunker's guess at several band plans. Whichever one has the most green (and least red) is the most likely band plan in use. Red frequencies are invalid for that particular band plan, so it's unlikely they'd have the trunk system set up that way.

Click on the toolbar button matching the column with the most green. That may cause the Unitrunker frequency list to change slightly, depending if some of the frequencies on your screen were not in the band plan.

As for why Unitrunker is reporting 8 frequencies instead of the 12 that the database shows, it could be a number of things, from incorrect information submitted to the DB, to the DB not being up to date (maybe something's changed recently and either nobody has submitted it or somebody has and it hasn't been worked by the DB admins yet). Another possibility is that the last 4 frequencies are not used unless all of the previous 8 are in use - so they won't appear on your screen until they get used for the first time.

[Ensnared]

Originally Posted by Jay911

Unitrunker reports what it receives from the control channel data. It's possible that the system is using a different band plan than the normal band plan, and if this is the case, Unitrunker would report incorrect frequencies.

Does the frequency you've tuned on the scanner (by the way, it's TSYS, not TSY - it stands for Trunked SYStem object) match one of the frequencies in red on the Unitrunker screen? If so, you know at least that one is right.

On the Unitrunker screen, on the toolbar at the top, there is an icon which looks like a calculator. Click on it and the screen will change to show the frequencies you have logged, with several different columns of frequencies off to the right. This is Unitrunker's guess at several band plans. Whichever one has the most green (and least red) is the most likely band plan in use. Red frequencies are invalid for that particular band plan, so it's unlikely they'd have the trunk system set up that way.

Click on the toolbar button matching the column with the most green. That may cause the Unitrunker frequency list to change slightly, depending if some of the frequencies on your screen were not in the band plan.

As for why Unitrunker is reporting 8 frequencies instead of the 12 that the database shows, it could be a number of things, from incorrect information submitted to the DB, to the DB not being up to date (maybe something's changed recently and either nobody has submitted it or somebody has and it hasn't been worked by the DB admins yet). Another possibility is that the last 4 frequencies are not used unless all of the previous 8 are in use - so they won't appear on your screen until they get used for the first time.

Ok, I will review what you've written while analyzing the Waco TSYS. I do know I went to that calculator-looking icon and went to "Rebanded" since I know the system has been rebanded.

Thanks for the help.

DWW

[Ensnared]

Originally Posted by Jay911

Unitrunker reports what it receives from the control channel data. It's possible that the system is using a different band plan than the normal band plan, and if this is the case, Unitrunker would report incorrect frequencies.

Does the frequency you've tuned on the scanner (by the way, it's TSYS, not TSY - it stands for Trunked SYStem object) match one of the frequencies in red on the Unitrunker screen? If so, you know at least that one is right.

On the Unitrunker screen, on the toolbar at the top, there is an icon which looks like a calculator. Click on it and the screen will change to show the frequencies you have logged, with several different columns of frequencies off to the right. This is Unitrunker's guess at several band plans. Whichever one has the most green (and least red) is the most likely band plan in use. Red frequencies are invalid for that particular band plan, so it's unlikely they'd have the trunk system set up that way.

Click on the toolbar button matching the column with the most green. That may cause the Unitrunker frequency list to change slightly, depending if some of the frequencies on your screen were not in the band plan.

As for why Unitrunker is reporting 8 frequencies instead of the 12 that the database shows, it could be a number of things, from incorrect information submitted to the DB, to the DB not being up to date (maybe something's changed recently and either nobody has submitted it or somebody has and it hasn't been worked by the DB admins yet). Another possibility is that the last 4 frequencies are not used unless all of the previous 8 are in use - so they won't appear on your screen until they get used for the first time.

1) Yes, the red CC matches what I am seeing on the PSR 500 screen;

2) When I clicked on the suggested calculator-looking icon, three columns showed 100% green: starndard; rebanded; and Australia. When I clicked on each of these, nothing changed. The order was the same.

So, out of the three, all had the same exact number. None exceeded the others.

[Ensnared]

"Another possibility is that the last 4 frequencies are not used unless all of the previous 8 are in use - so they won't appear on your screen until they get used for the first time."

Ok, this is something that confuses me about trunking system analysis. When I operate Unitrunker or Pro96Com and the system frequencies show up, does this mean that more frequencies might actually exist in the system?

As an example, I recently identified four system frequencies in the Woodway system; however, the FCC DB for the call signs specific to Woodway PD and Fire show more frequencies in their trunking system license. In know some of these are used as input, but I thought all of the system frequencies would show while the trunking was operating. Someone also commented that there were likely more call signs associated with the Woodway system.

If I follow this line of thinking, then this might explain why I am not seeing all of the frequencies listed for Waco/McClennan county here. It also opens up the possibility that Woodway might have more system frequencies. Mind you, I am still learning how to do this, analyzing systems.

In order to test this out, I will be running trunking analysis on both Woodway and Waco/McLennan county to observe the behavior. I might discover something else. Who knows?

[texasemt13]

Unitrunker will not display that the channel exists until it is used. To show you this, when you first begin Unitrunker, the main tab will show "Channels" and these equate to frequencies.

If you see that there are 12 channels, then there are probably 11 voice channels and 1 CC. That being said, it won't populate that information until the voice channel has been used. So when you first begin the program it will only show 1, and then quickly it starts adding "channels" as the voice frequencies are used. If you let UT run for awhile, and the voice frequencies get used, it will eventually reach the right number.

I'm not as familiar with Pro96Com, and how this works, but I imagine it's similar, because until the control channel sends the data out to that talkgroup, the scanner itself hasn't received any indication that there are other voice channels.

For instance, you begin to analyze UT at 4am when Waco is dead asleep. At first you'd see one channel (the CC) on the UT Info tab. Then a WPD officer keys up to talk dispatch and uses the first voice channel (the first one that Unitrunker has seen, besides the CC). Now the Info tab shows 2 channels. As the WPD talkgroup is used, and rolls through other voice channels, the Info tab will update the "channels" to the number of unique voice channels (frequencies) it "sees."

Is this clearer than mud? It's hard to explain such intangible/abstract terms through the medium of the an internet forum.

[Ensnared]

Originally Posted by texasemt13

Unitrunker will not display that the channel exists until it is used. To show you this, when you first begin Unitrunker, the main tab will show "Channels" and these equate to frequencies.

If you see that there are 12 channels, then there are probably 11 voice channels and 1 CC. That being said, it won't populate that information until the voice channel has been used. So when you first begin the program it will only show 1, and then quickly it starts adding "channels" as the voice frequencies are used. If you let UT run for awhile, and the voice frequencies get used, it will eventually reach the right number.

I'm not as familiar with Pro96Com, and how this works, but I imagine it's similar, because until the control channel sends the data out to that talkgroup, the scanner itself hasn't received any indication that there are other voice channels.

For instance, you begin to analyze UT at 4am when Waco is dead asleep. At first you'd see one channel (the CC) on the UT Info tab. Then a WPD officer keys up to talk dispatch and uses the first voice channel (the first one that Unitrunker has seen, besides the CC). Now the Info tab shows 2 channels. As the WPD talkgroup is used, and rolls through other voice channels, the Info tab will update the "channels" to the number of unique voice channels (frequencies) it "sees."

Is this clearer than mud? It's hard to explain such intangible/abstract terms through the medium of the an internet forum.

I think I am starting to understand that the presence or absence of system frequencies might be time-dependent, possibly demand-dependent, or both. I was thinking that the system was set into motion and the software would bring forth all system frequencies at any time. So, I will observe behavior, as we say in the behavioral community, across environments.

Thanks for your response.