DJI to include ADS-B receivers on all drones over 250 grams

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Token

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That makes a lot of sense really. 250 grams is the registration cut-off, drones below that point do not require either themselves (if in commercial use) or their operators (if in hobby use) to be registered. Basically this is often the "cheap toy" vs "more serious" weight point.

ADS-B reception can be done with a pennies worth of hardware when added to the processors / sensors already on DJI products.

Now, an ADS-B transmitter equipped drone would be a bit of a problem. The cost would be much higher, and the hit on battery life / flight time would be substantial.

T!
 

KK4JUG

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At 100+ mph, they'll still be tough to see.
 
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DaveNF2G

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It won't be terribly useful until ADS-B is mandatory in Class E/F airspace.
 

alcahuete

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It won't be terribly useful until ADS-B is mandatory in Class E/F airspace.

How so? There really aren't any aircraft going to be flying around in Class E airspace at 400' anyway, except around airports, and I'm sure that's what they are trying to catch with this...landing and departing aircraft near an airport. There aren't going to be any aircraft at 400' in Class A, B, C, D, or G airspace either, except around airports.

What it is going to do is allow operators to think that they can just fly wherever they want and at whatever altitude they want, because they'll have a head's up as to what aircraft are out there. That's the scary part.
 

Token

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How so? There really aren't any aircraft going to be flying around in Class E airspace at 400' anyway, except around airports, and I'm sure that's what they are trying to catch with this...landing and departing aircraft near an airport. There aren't going to be any aircraft at 400' in Class A, B, C, D, or G airspace either, except around airports.



What it is going to do is allow operators to think that they can just fly wherever they want and at whatever altitude they want, because they'll have a head's up as to what aircraft are out there. That's the scary part.

The drones so equipped will still be geofenced, so flying wherever they want will be a problem, and they will still have the current software defined altitude limitations. In fact, for the ADS-B to work at all it has to know the position of the drone, so the position system of the drone has to remain basically unspoofed.


Currently the way to defeat the DJI location based flight limitations is to not update the firmware, to load an older firmware, or to spoof the GPS. In such cases, if they work on your model at all, the ADS-B of course would not work.


For those of you not familiar with how DJI is conducting itself: For good or bad (that is a matter of opinion, and several opinions exist) DJI is being more proactive than other drone makers. They are monitoring the regulatory landscape and trying to foretell where it might be going and preparing solutions to regulations as they arise, even somewhat driving it by their actions.


This makes some sense as DJI wants to continue in the drone market, and if drones are banned or severely restricted this will impact DJI's bottom line.


For example, the restriction on flying near airports and the recommended 400 foot altitude limit have been in place a long time, decades. They only acquired the force of regulation relatively recently. Looking forward in the hobby DJI built nannies into their drones software that restricts flight under these conditions. To fly in an illegal manor you often must either acknowledge that you know the limitation exists and want to do it anyway, or under some conditions it may not be allowed at all.


A good example, I live just inside, like 150 meters inside, a 5 mile ring around a small local airport. Before I can take off in my own yard, even if just to hover at 5 feet, I must acknowledge that I am in a Warning Zone or the drone will not take off. And over my property I am in an Altitude Zone, meaning that the drone will limit itself to less than the 400 feet AGL allowed by regulation (I am not sure what the software altitude restriction is here, I think around 100 feet). Further, in theory, I will have contacted the tower or airfield operator to inform them of my flight. Since the tower is not manned, that can be problematic.


There are 90 foot tall trees less than 50 yards from where I take off in my yard. An aircraft hitting my drone at 40 feet has bigger issues than my drone. But the software will not allow that to happen without me acknowledging two different warnings not to proceed without understanding the limitations.


And if I where a little closer to the airport the software would not allow me to proceed at all without going through an online authorization process that requires divulging a confirmed ID and address.


No, I do not see the inclusion of ADS-B receivers to DJI products as a bad thing in any way.


It might be worth noting that DJI is playing both sides of the street. They also make a system that can be installed in airports or sensitive areas to detect when a drone is flying nearby, and identify who is flying it.


But DJI is only one maker. There are other drone makers who do not include such systems in their products. And it is still possible to build a drone from scratch, and have whatever level of limitation you want, from very strict to completely unlimited.


For the most part, DJI drones (unless they predate the geofencing software, now standard on DJI products for over 5 years) are not the ones being flown into restricted air space, it is more likely to be some other brand. However, DJI drones are the most recognized by the general public, so the media has a habit of showing pictures of DJI products, typically the Phantom line or the Mavic line, when using graphics during reports of drone incursions.


And DJI's software sometimes does not stop users from doing dumb things, like flying near buildings, over crowded streets, etc. It is hard to write software that allows usability, and still prevents stupid.

T!
 

alcahuete

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The drones so equipped will still be geofenced, so flying wherever they want will be a problem, and they will still have the current software defined altitude limitations.

So that being the case, then what's the point? Is it just a cool tool to sell more drones? There are no planes at 400 AGL.
 

Token

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So that being the case, then what's the point? Is it just a cool tool to sell more drones? There are no planes at 400 AGL.

In my opinion it allows them to show the FAA and other regulating authorities how voluntarily compliant they are trying to be.

However, don't be so sure there are no aircraft at 400 AGL. I have often seen helos that low and have even had to keep a visual and gain some separation on a crop duster below that altitude while I was flying one of my drones in a 100% legal location. One of the desert areas I regularly fly near is a military low level corridor, and I have seen B-52's, F-16's, etc, under 500 feet there. Of course, mil aircraft often run sans transponder when not controlled, so ADS-B would not be a big help under those conditions.

So, while it is an uncommmon thing, never say never.

T!
 

alcahuete

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In my opinion it allows them to show the FAA and other regulating authorities how voluntarily compliant they are trying to be.

Voluntary compliance with what? There are no regulations with which to be compliant. I get it...I get what they're trying to show, but it seems silly to me, to be honest. Just another gimmick with zero use.

So, while it is an uncommmon thing, never say never.

While very true, such operations are few and far between. And in my personal opinion, any aircraft operating outside of 91.119 whether allowed to or not, takes on an additional layer of responsibility, and an added requirement for additional vigilance with separation from...well...everything. If a helicopter is flying at 300' AGL and runs into a legally-operating drone and crashes, that's on the PIC of the helicopter, as far as I'm concerned. Same goes for buildings, trees, radio towers, etc. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. But of course, just my opinion. ;)
 

Token

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Voluntary compliance with what? There are no regulations with which to be compliant. I get it...I get what they're trying to show, but it seems silly to me, to be honest. Just another gimmick with zero use.

Voluntary compliance with the guidelines to maintain separation and the pilots responsibility to be vigilant to the presence of other traffic.


Look at it this way, there is no regulation that says DJI must put geofencing in their drones. There is no regulation that a drone, in hobby use, cannot fly within 5 miles of an airport.


There is a guideline (in hobby use) and a regulation (in commercial use) that the drone pilot must contact the tower / airport and notify them (not required to request permission in the case of hobby use) if the drone will be operated within 5 miles of an airport. There is a regulation that the drone cannot fly within certain more constrained areas without permission.


By using geofencing to warn the drone pilot his aircraft is within 5 miles of an airport they are showing a willingness to be overly vigilant and compliant. By using geofencing and an online authorization process (which is on their web site with no connection to the FAA or other official site / organization and has no method to confirm the user actually has authorization) for the more restricted operations areas they are showing they can be pro-active and help promote a safe drone community.


There is a guideline (in hobby use) and a regulation (in commercial use) that the drone must remain within 400 feet of the ground or a fixed structure. 400' AGL or within a 400' radius of a structure such as a tower or building. So DJI put a notification in their software and a "soft" limit of 400' AGL (actually +400' MSL of the launch site) that can be bypassed with an acknowledgment of the warning and a "hard" limit of something like 1640' (500 meters) AGL (again, actually +1640 MSL from the launch site) from the launch point. These limits are a real pain in the butt, by the way, if you fly in mountainous areas, since the limits are established in relationship to your launch point, regardless of what terrain is doing.


But none of that is required. They are voluntarily putting systems in their drones to assist the pilot in understanding his surroundings and limitations or hazards that might be present. They already had GPS in the drone for the autopilot, so adding geofencing was easy. They already had a barometric altimeter on the drone, again for the autopilot, so why not add the altitude warnings and limits?


It is a fact that when a drone pilot is maintaining line of site to his drone he has very limited ability to observe the airspace around and behind him. This is not like looking out of an aircraft where your cockpit is the center of your world. An aircraft 2 miles out to the side or behind the operator and closing on an intercept course might not be seen until it enters the region of air the drone operator is watching to maintain control of his drone.


An ADS-B receiver on the drone can give another layer of protection, a potential heads up, however unlikely it is that there will be an aircraft low enough (particularly one with a transponder on) to be an issue.


And like I said, with the gear/processing already on the drone the addition of an SDR style RX to do the ADS-B reception is pennies.


You ask " Voluntary compliance with what?" Voluntary compliance with general safety, vs regulation. The perception is sometimes as politically important as the real impact.

T!
 

Token

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400' AGL or within a 400' radius of a structure such as a tower or building.

Just for clarity here, I am not sure this 400' radius of a structure is still valid. It was, for sure, up until 16 May. But 16 May new regulations went in place, and while the 400' AGL restriction is the same, the wording is a bit different, and the 400' radius to a structure is not defined, and no clarification form the FAA has been heard (that I know of). Until I hear different I am still going with it ;)

T!
 

alcahuete

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Sooooooooo........I'm guessing you missed all the rules changes that went into effect for recreational flyers?

Hope you're still not flying within 5 miles of the airports and above 400'. ;)
 

Token

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Sooooooooo........I'm guessing you missed all the rules changes that went into effect for recreational flyers?

Hope you're still not flying within 5 miles of the airports and above 400'. ;)

I am guessing you missed my post above yours discussing the new regs? Also, you use a baseless accusatory tone of speech "hope you're still not".

The "new" regulation is not that you cannot fly within 5 miles of an airport, the former regulation was that you must contact them prior, the new regulation is basically the same limitation but you must use the LAANC to schedule such flights instead of contacting the airport directly, or you must fly from a fixed or defined location.

Yes I am still (OK, I have not yet done so since the new regs went into place, but I intend to) flying within 5 miles of an airport, a fixed or defined location inside 5 miles of that airport is a local RC flying club. We do have a military airfield about 8 miles from the house, and no one has managed to reach an agreement with them. It will be interesting to see how the new regs play out with them. Fortunately I am outside the 5 mile line for them and also outside their restricted airspace, although I have to be careful flying south of my house, as their approach restrictions start about 800 yards south of me.

Previously I had a written understanding with the operator of the small airport just under 5 miles away, defining under what conditions and limitations those flights would be. I put that in place a couple years ago, when it proved difficult to always contact the airport operator. A "fixed and defined location", but not one on the current list. Once the LAANC is working and things stable out I intend to pursue a similar path again.

But to tell you the truth, and I am 150 yards inside the 5 mile line for that airport (front of the property is, back of the property is outside the line), if the LAANC is not yet working and I want to hover my drone in the back yard to do some checks, while technically illegal I am not going to be that concerned. I would not, however, get above the treeline, that is just my opinion. Like I said, if an aircraft hits my drone at 40 feet over my property then he has bigger issues.

And please point out where I said I was flying more than 400' AGL? I do occasionally fly more than 400' above my launch point, when the terrain rises under either my drone or my RC aircraft. All 100% kosher, but I actually find that I am seldom that high, 250'ish feet AGL is about all I ever really need unless I am using something pretty high performance. Since my gas aircraft seldom come out anymore that is not often.

The actual changes to drone flying were pretty small. Some, most, things that were recommendations took on the strength of regulation, some did not. More importantly, they changed the fact that the FAA had difficulty, previously, enforcing activities on hobbyist, and they now can. They repealed Section 336, and rolled hobbyist under a new section, I think it is Section 349.

The general guidance for flying inside 5 miles of an airport remains basically the same, you are supposed to inform them of the fact you are doing so. The new regs change the way you are supposed to contact / schedule such flights, a phone call is no longer good enough, you are supposed to use the LAANC to do so, however that system is NOT currently functional for hobby drone use yet. So right now only flights from fixed and defined locations inside 5 miles are authorized. They anticipate they will have the LAANC functioning for hobby drones inside the fiscal year. For some hobby fliers this will make legally flying inside 5 miles of an airport actually easier than in the past.

The 400' AGL remains essentially unchanged, it is what it was, however as I said in my previous posting no one is sure, yet, if the FAA will keep the same 400' radius to a structure interpretation.

But really, the thing I was discussing , there is no requirement that the drone contain these limitations (since these limitations can all be legally bypassed with correct authorization), it is strictly up to the pilot. DJI has voluntarily included these limits, looking forward to future possibilities, and they did so long before these limitations were defined.

T!
 
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alcahuete

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Also, you use a baseless accusatory tone of speech "hope you're still not".

Its hardly baseless, since just a few posts up yesterday, you describe that there is no regulation that says you can't fly within 5 miles of an airport, and it's only a guideline that you stay below 400' AGL as a hobbyist. Both are 100% incorrect, which is why I questioned the misinformation. The new regulations are not the same limitations at all. LAANC requests require approval by the FAA and any ATC facilities involved, which is vastly different than a simple notification. It's no longer a matter of going out with your drone, calling the tower, and telling them that you're going flying. The 400' AGL "guideline" is also no longer a guideline. It is regulation. Of course, the 5NM rule can be waived at the fixed RC parks and such, but that's neither here nor there.

I guess I can see your point with DJI including it, and it's probably a noble gesture in an attempt to make things look safer, but I still contend that it's a solution in search of a problem. Since each drone has to now be registered and receive a reg number, it would make WAY more sense to me to require UAS to have ADS-B transmitters on board as well, and perhaps be automatically activated over a certain altitude, say 50-100' or such. While there are a lot of drones in use, I'm sure it's not enough at any given time to cause significant clutter to aircraft displays, and if it is, they can always be filtered by altitude. Airliners, for example, would not see the UAS when they're cruising at FL350 or such.
 

Token

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Its hardly baseless, since just a few posts up yesterday, you describe that there is no regulation that says you can't fly within 5 miles of an airport, and it's only a guideline that you stay below 400' AGL as a hobbyist. Both are 100% incorrect, which is why I questioned the misinformation.

It was baseless, as it assumed / implied I did such things, specifically fly above 400 feet AGL or, illegally, within 5 miles of an airport. To date I have tried to avoid doing those things illegally, and followed the necessary processes. I did not say there was no restrictions on flying within 5 NM of an airport, I said there were restrictions to both distance to an airport and altitude, however I said they were both guidelines, vs regulations. At the time I wrote that that was, as you pointed out, incorrect. They both became regulation 9 days prior, a change of / to regulations I pointed out myself before you had a chance to. I came back to review what I had posted, realized the wording was poor / incorrect and the change date was passed, however it was after the edit period, so I could not change what I had posted.

Yes, I had forgotten, until an hour or so after posting, the new regs went into place 9 days before I made that post, I knew they were coming, but they really do not impact the way I fly, much, so I was less diligent about exactly when they started.

To be clear, I try to always fly within the rules, even before the rules were rules and only suggestions. I will, occasionally, fly at low level over my own property, for example to inspect antennas. Technically illegal today, or at least it is at the front of my property, 150 meters inside the mapped 5 NM radius, the back of my property is "legal" as it is beyond 5 NM, I am sometimes not diligent about staying only at the back half of my property. However if an aircraft hits my drone at 40 feet over my property he is below the tops of my trees, below 7 large antennas on top of towers, and below several thousand feet of wire in my three Rhombics and various other wire antennas. He has bigger problems than my drone. So yeah, if I did that today it might be a technical violation of the reg, but I am quite certain it is no threat to aviation.

The new regulations are not the same limitations at all. LAANC requests require approval by the FAA and any ATC facilities involved, which is vastly different than a simple notification. It's no longer a matter of going out with your drone, calling the tower, and telling them that you're going flying. The 400' AGL "guideline" is also no longer a guideline. It is regulation. Of course, the 5NM rule can be waived at the fixed RC parks and such, but that's neither here nor there.

You and I are interpreting things differently. I see the new regulations as the same limitations to operations that existed before, only now they are better defined and have, potentially, more teeth behind them. If you were in compliance before you are today, with the exception of now, today, there is no process to add to the existing approved flying areas within 5 NM of an airport. There may, or may not, be such a process in the future.

The LAANC, and how it will be used for hobby drone operations, will be interesting to see. Yes, it is not the same thing, not as simple in some cases, as notifying the airfield. But to be honest, some airfields were impossible to notify, and some airfields felt they should always tell the drone operator "no", regardless of where or when or even if they could say no. With any luck the LAANC will result in more uniformity and less ambiguity.

I guess I can see your point with DJI including it, and it's probably a noble gesture in an attempt to make things look safer, but I still contend that it's a solution in search of a problem. Since each drone has to now be registered and receive a reg number, it would make WAY more sense to me to require UAS to have ADS-B transmitters on board as well, and perhaps be automatically activated over a certain altitude, say 50-100' or such. While there are a lot of drones in use, I'm sure it's not enough at any given time to cause significant clutter to aircraft displays, and if it is, they can always be filtered by altitude. Airliners, for example, would not see the UAS when they're cruising at FL350 or such.

For hobby use each drone does not have to be registered, that part is unchanged. For commercial use each drone must be registered, but for hobby use the operator must be registered and each drone (over 0.55 lbs and under 55 lbs) must bear the operators registration number. For example, all of my drones / RC aircraft carry the same number. Over 55 lbs each drone must be individually registered, hobby use or not.

While it may make more sense for a drone to carry an ADS-B transponder, I rather doubt such a thing will happen. At least, any time soon. I am not sure how small and light such a system (transponder and separate from flight systems battery) could be made and still be useful, but I would bet not much under 200 grams in itself. For a small drone half its weight might be transponder in such a case.

The 250 gram (0.55 lbs) limit is interesting. Initially all you found in this weight category (250 grams or less) were low cost "toys", but that is changing. An entire new group of under 250 gram drones are starting to pop up, and they are becoming quite capable. Further, the FAA web site has dropped some of the "under 250 gram" wording, it is less clear about there being a 250 gram lower limit to registration, although most guides still say there is.

The other issue with the registration process and weight limits is that some people assume the rules don't apply if the drone or pilot do not have to be registered. Below 250 grams (maybe) you don't have to register the pilot or put a number on the drone. But does that mean the rules don't apply? Is a 12 year old flying a 4 ounce mini drone in his back yard 2 miles from an airport in violation? More to the point, is he a danger to aviation?

I feel this "yard flying" issue will have to be specifically addressed at some point, and probably not too far in the future. I am not saying make it illegal, I am saying clearly state if it is legal or not, and what restrictions apply. As I interpret it today it is not legal, but that is probably needlessly restrictive.

This is a tough nut to crack meaningfully. It is easy to go over the top with restrictions, it is very hard to put the minimum possible restriction in place while still providing the required level of safety and control. 30 years ago this was a non-issue, despite the fact that RC aircraft were potentially just as much a danger to aviation. 30 years ago any Joe Blow off the street could not go out, buy an aircraft for the first time and with no experience, and 2 hours later have it cruising around in the LAX traffic pattern. It took time, effort, and expense to get to the point you could keep an RC model in controlled flight in a dangerous to aviation area. This was a natural filter of sorts.

T!
 
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DaveNF2G

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The FAA told me via email that they are still trying to find a way to make the B4Ufly app more conistent with new regulations. It imposes limitations and gives alerts under unreasonable conditions because it interprets the regs absolutely literally. Anything that is listed as an "airport" triggers an alert, even if nobody ever flies there (such as a local armory with a helipad). It also alerts for uncontrolled airports, where there is nobody to contact.
 
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DaveNF2G

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BTW, it has been stated officially before that it is not the intent of the FAA to regulate drones (including hobbyist drones) into uselessness. They merely wish to protect other aircraft and the drones from each other.

Of course, the attorneys who draft laws and regulations are masters of unintended consequences.
 
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