5/8 heliax coax questions?

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BrettL

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I was helping my father the other day because he had some issues and I found he has been rigging the connectors on his heliax. I searched for a number and did not find one. I measured the outside diameter and it was 5/8. It has the corrugated copper and the foam dielectic. Also has the big solid center wire.

I had no way to cross reference it other than the diameter of the cable. I found it could be something to the nature of LDF 4.5. Is there something I need to do to find the exact type other than what I have done?

What type of ( AFFORDABLE) connectors should I use? Where to purchase such connectors?

The way he had the ends rigged I can not begin to explain. It was not intended to be done the way he did it. At the first 100 feet where it was joined keeps melting. He has a lot of continuous rms watts and loads it a few watts below the specs I seen ( if it is the LDF-4.5 ) @ the frequencies he operates. It is a super nice station and I would like to improve his transmission lines. He is old and can't go up the mountain often as I can.
 
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mmckenna

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No marking on the cable? You'd likely need some more exact measurements of the outer conductor and inner conductor to know for sure. Sort of hard to guess on the internet.

There really are only a few companies that make good, reliable heliax connectors. If it is 5/8 (LDF4.5-50) you might have a harder time finding them. It's not quite as common as the 1/2" and 7/8" sized cable. Andrews/CommScope Heliax connectors are always a good choice

5/8" N connector: https://www.tessco.com/products/displayProductInfo.do?sku=438107&fromSuggestion=true
 

BrettL

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There is over 300ft of this coax. Sometime today I will get up there again and trace all of it up to the antenna and look for more #'s. Rattlesnakes are really bad right now and I need to do some trimming of the trees to make a better path. This is some old stuff and not sure if numbers are still on it. I know there was no numbers on the first 100 ft. I may can take pictures and put them on here.
 

KM4LCB

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If the outside diameter is 5/8, are you measuring the outer conductor or outer jacket. LDF4-50 is 5/8in measuring the outer jacket. That is actually referred to as 1/2in coax. I'd be concerned about the quality of the line if it is getting so hot in places that it melts the jacket. I'd suspect there could be damage to the dielectric as well.
 

prcguy

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Hardline or Heliax size is measured roughly by the ID of the shield (dialectic OD) and 1/2" Andrew/Commscope Heliax has an OD over the outer plastic covering around 5/8" so that's probably what you have.

There are many mfrs of hardline coax and Andrew/Commscope has rings of corrugation in the copper shield where another brand has spiral corrugations and the Aluminum types usually have no corrugation.

Connectors for 1/2" Andrew/Commsope Heliax can be had new on Ebay for very cheap at times, just keep looking. They are not fun to install but can be done with a hacksaw, knife and soldering gun in the field. Just read and follow the instructions that come with each connector.

If the application is for HF a few sloppy mistakes in connector assembly is not a big deal but if this is for UHF and above you need to be very precise when putting the connectors on.
prcguy
 

BrettL

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To clarify things you say that 1/2" Andrews has a OD of 5/8"?

So "if" this is what I have then I would order connectors for the 1/2" coaxial cable?

I thought about getting a prep tool but when I seen the price I will stick with the hacksaw, portable soldiering iron, utility knife, Emory, wrenches, and weather seal tape.
 

mmckenna

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I thought about getting a prep tool but when I seen the price I will stick with the hacksaw, portable soldiering iron, utility knife, Emory, wrenches, and weather seal tape.

Yeah, if you are only going to be doing 2 connectors, the official tool kit would probably be a poor investment. I've got the tools, they do a nice job, but you can do it with standard hand tools if you are careful.
 

BrettL

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Ok by looking at these pics you will see why I need to replace them. I got to take care of these things so he will not burn anything up or cause a fire. The heliax did have a 1/2'' dielectric and 5/8'' OD. I barely made a name out but it was Andrews Heliax but I could not make out anything else.

I did not post pics of some of the connectors. They were modified pl259's and where clamped. I could tell a ziz wheel was used and everything was done sloppy. For the sake of the radio equipment these need to be replaced.

There is one pic that has the correct ends and if I knew what they were I would consider them. It is 3 pieces of 100ft coax joined together. Should he move the shack closer to the antenna or vise versa it would get a heck of a lot stronger. The antenna was put up there for years to get above everything in our area and really helped with interfering with anyone. That's why he has it so far away because it's above everything in the neighborhood.

Welcome to the Jungle...
 

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BrettL

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Here are a few more. He had LMR 400 for the last piece to connect to his beam. He claimed as it traveled that far through the coax that it lost so much that it never burned it up. I am doing away with all of this and making everything better the right way. He rigged those pl259 connectors on there. It was sad. I did not know it but he was paying a guy to help him and the guy had no knowledge of radio related subjects and was there for some cheap money.
 

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cmdrwill

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Bret, the last photo has a male UHF or type N connector. a barrel and a PL259 on LMR440 that is assembled incorrectly.

There are many how to's for PL259 and even LDF heliax connectors on the web.
 

BrettL

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Bret, the last photo has a male UHF or type N connector. a barrel and a PL259 on LMR440 that is assembled incorrectly.

There are many how to's for PL259 and even LDF heliax connectors on the web.

I understand this. It will all be Andrews heliax and new connectors when I am finished with it. I will eliminate all other coax but the heliax. I started this thread to make sure this coax was 1/2" Andrew heliax and also what type of connectors should I purchase. I am aware this is assembled very incorrectly. When you are 70 years old, disabled, and pay a guy that don't know what he id doing to connect the coax this is the result. I am now helping my father to fix this issue with his feed line. I was asking for help with the connectors and maybe part numbers?, Is this LDF4? what connectors should I use?
 

KM4LCB

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Looking at the second picture, it looks to me like you most definitely have something like LDF4-50A, like what is on this link:

LDF4-50A 1/2" Andrew Heliax Coaxial Cable, Standard

What follows, I didn't expect to be so long, but given hanging antennas and coax on towers was my job for the past few years, I wanted to share as much info as I could.

Preface

That splice is so scary looking my first thought is to stop all transmit operations on that line until it gets fixed. I'd also see if you can find any hams in the area with experience working with coax like that. I used to attach connectors to LDF4 and LDF5 (also called "7/8ths") all the time at my last job, though we had all the prep tools to make it very easy. Andrews is not the only company that makes connectors for LDF4, there's also Eupen and I believe some others, and they all should work with that cable. If you buy them new it is more expensive but they will come with instructions for proper installation which helps a lot if you are doing it for the first time.

I'd be willing to offer assistance myself but I'm afraid that I live a bit too far away over in Florida to do so. My old boss was a ham himself and would occasionally offer assistance installing antennas and coax for clubs if we happened to be doing work on a tower they wanted to install a repeater on. If you happen to have any local amateur repeaters in your area, you might benefit from asking the clubs that operate them who put the antennas and coax up. They might be willing to help you out.

My Recommendations

Coax and Connectors

If money were no object, i'd replace those three sections of coax with one continuous piece of the best coax you can find. LDF4 has an attenuation of about .449db per 100 feet at 150mhz, so with 300 feet you are looking at losses of maybe 1.5db or less, which is practically nothing. You should not be having that much loss that stuff starts melting. When you have multiple pieces put together like that you introduce more points of failure, and each connector will introduce a little bit of loss in your line. It doesn't help matters that a lot of those connectors you have are UHF, which introduces an even greater mismatch than more modern connectors like N-type.

If you choose to keep the coax you have on hand, be sure to inspect every foot of it for signs of kinks or crush damage. I bet the connector at the top of that mast was installed improperly too. Try to make all the connectors N type if you can, with one side of the connection a male and the other female. This way you avoid having to use barrels to join the coax pieces together.

Weatherproofing

As for weatherproofing, the pro's generally use butyl rubber tape as an extra layer of sealant in addition to electrical tape. The way I do it is to first apply a layer of tape over the connectors to keep the butyl from gumming up the connection. We call this "courtesy tape" because it makes life much easier for anyone who has to remove the weatherproofing in the future. Next, I apply a layer of butyl to completely cover up the connection, including the courtesy tape, and smooth it out with my hands as best I can. Then I apply a layer of electrical tape at least 5 or 6 layers thick, as neatly as possible to seal in the butyl so it doesn't bust out in hot weather. The tape holds the butyl in place, and the butyl does an excellent job of keeping the water out. The problem with electrical tape is that over time the adhesive can fail, and water will then seep underneath it and get into your connectors. Butyl doesn't have that issue, but needs tape to hold it in place because it can slowly flow away in the hot sun. One last tip: Never break electrical tape with your hands, always cut it with a knife or scissors. If you break it by hand, you risk stretching it at the end, and that end will slowly pull back and separate from the surface it was stuck to, leaving a tag blowing in the wind.

I've attached a picture showing what the final product looks like, though I don't have any work-in-progress pics available, unfortunately.

Protecting the Coax

Finally, with a run that long I'd be concerned about protecting it from being run over and damaged if it is just lying on the ground like I think it is. I recommend either burying it or suspending it above the ground. Burial might not be an option depending on what type of soil you are dealing with and there is always the risk that someone digging in the future might accidentally cut it. Over time the soil, if it is in a high traffic area, might crush it too, if not buried deep enough. My preference is suspending it. If you suspend it you need to make sure that you have it hanging from something that bears the load, such as a messenger cable made of steel cable. If corrugated coax is unsupported it can sag under its own weight over the years, stretching out the outer corrugated conductor. The center conductor won't stretch as much, resulting in it possibly being pulled away from where it mates with the center pin in your connector, breaking the connection. If suspended on a messenger cable make sure whatever you use to hold the coax to the cable is wide enough to spread out the weight and not pinch it.

Conclusion

I hope I didn't throw too much info out there at once for you. If you have any questions about what I've written i'll be happy to answer them.
 

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BrettL

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The coax is ran up hill on the ground to the antenna. One day we may move the shack closer to eliminate loss. The only roads are access roads to the antenna that we made. There is no way for it to be ran over but occasionally a few squirrels might eat on the outer coating. It is just layed on the ground and over the years is buried by leaves and such. It does not have any kinks or pinches. It appears in good shape other than the connections and the one piece of LMR attached to it. If salvageable I would like to only replace the connectors with the correct type. I do have the butyl weatherized tape and hand tools to do it all. I have done 100's or more of connectors but not the type for the Andrews LDF4-50A. I feel confident in this area. I will use some courtesy tae as well.

I have found some L4TN-PSA Positive Stop Conn, N-Male/ N-Frmale For 1/2" LDF4 / Also the L4TD for 1/2" LDF4 both female and male ends. I was considering these. They are roughly $10-$12 a piece and may be cheaper if I get more. I possibly could get free shipping to and it's only a state away in Georgia.

I noticed in your picture you have a different piece of coax, I assume, going to the feed point of antenna that looks more flexible?

I wanted to eliminate the LMR and have nothing but the heliax but if I have to use it then I will need an adapter. Not sure which kind but I can google.

Also we talked about replacing the heliax with one solid piece. I will have to search for companies that make good coax and good prices whether it's over seas. Got to find that good deal. After all it is 300 ft of this stuff and that's not cheap! This will be in the latter days when it cools off some or possibly this winter.

When the mineral prices of copper drops does it effect the price these type coaxes?

Sorry to keep rambling on but I like to ask a lot of questions...........
 

mmckenna

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The coax is ran up hill on the ground to the antenna.....

You are on the right track. Cut off the bad ends of coax a few feet on either side. Water intrusion into the cable can cause corrosion, shorts, all kinds of issues. Make 100% sure you are seeing clean copper all the way around. Replace all the connectors with N type. A properly installed N connector is, by design, waterproof. However, you should not rely on that. Place a layer of wide electrical tape over the whole connection going 6 inches or so on either side. Lay on a layer self amalgamating adhesive tape and follow with another layer of electrical tape. All the electrical tape wraps should be done as "half lap and back". Each turn should overlap the previous turn by 50%. When you get to the end, reverse direction and do the same again. You'll go through a lot of tape, but this is a proven method.

After you've done the tape/waterproof/tape, follow it up with a layer of ScotchKote sealant. You can get this from electrical wholesalers.


I have found some L4TN-PSA Positive Stop Conn, N-Male/ N-Frmale For 1/2" LDF4 / Also the L4TD for 1/2" LDF4 both female and male ends. I was considering these. They are roughly $10-$12 a piece and may be cheaper if I get more. I possibly could get free shipping to and it's only a state away in Georgia.

If those are name brand connectors, that's a good price. You can often find them on e-Bay, too. You can reuse old connectors if you are really careful with disassembly, but you are doing right by installing new ones.


Also we talked about replacing the heliax with one solid piece. I will have to search for companies that make good coax and good prices whether it's over seas. Got to find that good deal. After all it is 300 ft of this stuff and that's not cheap! This will be in the latter days when it cools off some or possibly this winter.

Shouldn't be a big deal, you can find the stuff from many dealers. I didn't see where you mentioned which band he operates, but you really need to take into account line loss when you are looking at 300 feet of cable. Sticking with something like 1/2 inch heliax is a really good idea.


When the mineral prices of copper drops does it effect the price these type coaxes?

Not that I've seen. The prices are pretty stable. They make millions of feet of this stuff...

I've seen plenty of mountain top sites where heliax has been laid on the ground like this. As long as it doesn't get pinched or damaged, it'll work fine. If you can, try to check it now and then and seal up any rodent damage you find.

Also, by laying this stuff running up a hill, you are creating a really good path for lightning. Make sure you ground things properly:

You should have the outer shield bonded to the tower near the antenna.
You should have the outer shield bonded to ground where it transitions off the tower, as well as having the tower well grounded.
You should ground the outer shield before it enters the shack AND install something like a Polyphaser protecter.
 

haleve

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Anniston Alabama, My Kind Of Place

Get with these guys, they are tried & true good ole boys who are more then willing to help a brother Ham operator out especially in the city of GODS children like Anniston.

Home - Calhoun County Amateur Radio Association

I used to hunt with some of the lawmen who hailed from your dads city some time ago when law enforcement was not so politically motivated, good men who performed good deeds for good people.
 

BrettL

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Get with these guys, they are tried & true good ole boys who are more then willing to help a brother Ham operator out especially in the city of GODS children like Anniston.

Home - Calhoun County Amateur Radio Association

I used to hunt with some of the lawmen who hailed from your dads city some time ago when law enforcement was not so politically motivated, good men who performed good deeds for good people.

You know.....I was thinking of joining that club. I hear they are super smart. I don't hear them much but I do know they are always monitoring. I hunt up there near the tower. Not in the State Park where the tower is located but just outside the boundaries off Hwy 281 near Turnipseed . I became a Ham several months ago and was considering this club. I'm willing to bet at the age of 36 I would be the youngest member if accepted.
 
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