Aiming a yagi

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AnikF1R

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I acquired a 10 element yagi from an old Saturn dealer. It's 890-950 MHz, but I think it's close enough to the public safety 850s.

I'm at Cedar Lake Rd and 169. I've got it aimed directly northeast because I saw a map with an ARMER tower there. I've seen other maps that indicate a tower due north. I think that one said Hennepin 201. Is there a source that you guys use as far as maps and ARMER towers go? I'm not getting a lot aimed NE.

Thanks!
 

Weaksignal

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Have you considered using an inexpensive rotor with your yagi, such as a Hy-Gain AR-303, NTC or other?
 

rivardj

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I acquired a 10 element yagi from an old Saturn dealer. It's 890-950 MHz, but I think it's close enough to the public safety 850s.

I'm at Cedar Lake Rd and 169. I've got it aimed directly northeast because I saw a map with an ARMER tower there. I've seen other maps that indicate a tower due north. I think that one said Hennepin 201. Is there a source that you guys use as far as maps and ARMER towers go? I'm not getting a lot aimed NE.

Thanks!

A few things:

1) I'm not so sure that it is close enough to the 850's.

2) Looks like there is confusion regarding what you are aiming to receive.

3) If you are using a compass, which I suggest, to aid in aiming the antenna you need to understand the difference between True North and Magnetic North. If you are not using a compass, then well...

4) Feed line type and length could also be a factor.

Just a few thoughts.
 

AnikF1R

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I have not. My understanding, and I could be wrong, is that I could aim at any tower and hear all the calls going through ARMER. As if all calls go through every tower, at least in the Twin Cities. Is this assumption correct?
 

SCPD

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The 500 foot tower you see is the old Hennepin County PSAP in Golden Valley (which has now moved right next to the "Workhouse" in Plymouth). Your almost right on top of it so I am thinking that your yagi is too far out of frequency range or you are overloading your scanner with it. Your location is less than 3 miles away and I can't see any simulcast issues in your location. What is your signal quality with a normal telescoping or rubber duck antenna?. Please let us know what model of scanner you have?.
 

AnikF1R

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I am confused as to what I should aim at. I think now I'm just curious as to which tower I should be looking for.

I do know the True north, magnetic north difference. For this, I aimed using points on my property. I could be more accurate with a compass.

I'm using 100' of LMR-400.

Thanks
 

SCPD

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I have not. My understanding, and I could be wrong, is that I could aim at any tower and hear all the calls going through ARMER. As if all calls go through every tower, at least in the Twin Cities. Is this assumption correct?

That's not entirely true. You will hear any traffic for agencies that the Hennepin sites are for. Now there are some other agencies that may show up all the time or some times. Let's say you want to listen to MInnetonka PD (they dispatch themselves, their own PSAP) you will always hear them on the Hennepin East system. If you wanted to listen to Anoka County N or S dispatch, they are usually on the Hennepin system but not always. You may hear a Minneapolis PD dispatch TG if MPD radio affiliates with a Hennepin tower. It's very complex situation on who can and which systems they allowed to affiliate on or they get denied. It just depends on who you want to listen to guaranteed to be there. Want to listen to Ramsey County full time, you need to pickup one of their sites. ARMER is a very complex system and it works very well. The system admins make sure that sites don't get overloaded with talkgroups that are not their home sites.

One agency you will hear on most of the Metro area towers is State Patrol. Somewhere here or the net there is a list of who is usually heard where. There is no way that any ARMER site can carry all calls from the Metro.
 

rivardj

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I am confused as to what I should aim at. I think now I'm just curious as to which tower I should be looking for.

I do know the True north, magnetic north difference. For this, I aimed using points on my property. I could be more accurate with a compass.

I'm using 100' of LMR-400.

Thanks

Feed line is good, but you likely knew that.

Target and aiming accuracy look to be issues.
 

Weaksignal

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A few things:
3) If you are using a compass, which I suggest, to aid in aiming the antenna you need to understand the difference between True North and Magnetic North. If you are not using a compass, then well...


All good points... fortunately for the OP, the Minneapolis area is very close to the agonic line of 0 magnetic variation. No adjustment needed for true or magnetic north.
 

rivardj

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A few things:
3) If you are using a compass, which I suggest, to aid in aiming the antenna you need to understand the difference between True North and Magnetic North. If you are not using a compass, then well...


All good points... fortunately for the OP, the Minneapolis area is very close to the agonic line of 0 magnetic variation. No adjustment needed for true or magnetic north.

Well that is a plus.

Where i am in Michigan we are at just under 7 degrees.
 

jim202

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The 500 foot tower you see is the old Hennepin County PSAP in Golden Valley (which has now moved right next to the "Workhouse" in Plymouth). Your almost right on top of it so I am thinking that your yagi is too far out of frequency range or you are overloading your scanner with it. Your location is less than 3 miles away and I can't see any simulcast issues in your location. What is your signal quality with a normal telescoping or rubber duck antenna?. Please let us know what model of scanner you have?.

Guys, let me clear up one point here, the difference in the RX using the Yagi is not that much to be a concern. If you were trying to transmit on it, that is a whole different issue.

The big thing here with a yagi, is to make sure your RF connections are good and the coax your using doesn't add too much loos between the antenna and your receiver. Some antennas provide what looks like a short to an ohm meter, so you cant' just put the meter on the receiver end of it and check it out.

I would start with the basics and see if you can hear the tower your looking for with an omni antenna like a whip at the back of the receiver. If so, you can only get a better signal with the yagi once it's pointed in the right direction. With a 10 element yagi, you will have some gain to the front and limited side lobes. So it may take some effort to get it pointed in the right direction. But I will say that it will not be like a flashlight beam where If it isn't pointed perfectly, you won't hear the signal. You will have maybe 10 or 20 degree of pointing slop. Yes the better you get the antenna pointed, but it isn't that critical.

Let me also add another comment. You didn't say if this was a simulcast system your trying to listen to. If it is and your in the no capture zone between multiple towers, you may have to move the antenna round to find a good sweet spot. I don't mean swinging it east or west, I am talking physically moving it a couple of feet in the physical position.

Let the group know how you make out.

Jim
 

AnikF1R

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I'm using a BCD436HP. Overload is definitely a possibility. I'm actually starting to hear more as we go into the early evening here in MN. Seemed like, versus my 800 MHz Radio Shack rubber duck, the yagi is producing choppier audio. I'm getting "full bars" on the 436 on some signals, but not hearing anything or hearing choppy audio.
 

AnikF1R

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I'll have a chance to check out this stuff in a while. Thanks for all the help! I'll keep the group posted.
 

peq387ab

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Sounds like your running into a problem I had. First off for a good map that I use, I use Zee Maps that was made for the ARMER tower sites. I included a link below and in my area it seems pretty spot on to the locations.

One little trick that I learned from a good friend to tune in beams, if possible use a handheld with a short piece of coax if your antenna is on top of your roof and move it in the directions of choice to narrow down best signal. Inexpensive way.
 

cg

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When I aimed my yagis, I used Google Earth to draw a line from my antenna to the target antenna. I then zoomed in and looked at what I could see from my house nearby that the line crossed. I was able to point it very accurately that way.
I had also mounted the antenna in place and then connected the antenna directly to a handheld scanner while standing on my roof. I turned the mast by hand while listening to the control channel. I was able to get within 10 degrees that way.
I did use a commecial 806-895 mhz 11db gain yagi and LMR600 coax for the feed to minimize loss.

chris
 

rivardj

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When I aimed my yagis, I used Google Earth to draw a line from my antenna to the target antenna. I then zoomed in and looked at what I could see from my house nearby that the line crossed. I was able to point it very accurately that way.
I had also mounted the antenna in place and then connected the antenna directly to a handheld scanner while standing on my roof. I turned the mast by hand while listening to the control channel. I was able to get within 10 degrees that way.
I did use a commecial 806-895 mhz 11db gain yagi and LMR600 coax for the feed to minimize loss.

chris

Your Google Earth tip is a good one, I will have to remember that one.
 

stmills

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If I were you I would try and get a good aim locked on City Center - at that site you have Hennepin East 2-001, Metro Main 1-001, and Minneapolis 1-009- this would give you the most variety of Talkgroups .
 

jwt873

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I'll 'third' Google Earth. I aimed a 2.4 Ghz dish last fall over a 6 mile path. It worked like a charm.

There's an extra Google Earth feature good for aiming antennas. After you've brought up the ruler and drawn the line between you and your target, Click 'Save' in the box that tells you the direction in degrees and the distance. That will change the line from yellow to red.

Now right click on the red line. Choose 'Show Elevation Profile'. You'll get a graph showing the topography between you and your target. That will let you know if you have a line of sight path. (It doesn't account for fresnel losses. If you have a really long hall you need to take that in to account).
 
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