• Effective immediately we will be deleting, without notice, any negative threads or posts that deal with the use of encryption and streaming of scanner audio.

    We've noticed a huge increase in rants and negative posts that revolve around agencies going to encryption due to the broadcasting of scanner audio on the internet. It's now worn out and continues to be the same recycled rants. These rants hijack the threads and derail the conversation. They no longer have a place anywhere on this forum other than in the designated threads in the Rants forum in the Tavern.

    If you violate these guidelines your post will be deleted without notice and an infraction will be issued. We are not against discussion of this issue. You just need to do it in the right place. For example:
    https://forums.radioreference.com/rants/224104-official-thread-live-audio-feeds-scanners-wait-encryption.html

Amelia Earhart's Transmission from the Pacific - UPDATE

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Nov 28, 2016
Messages
8
#1
Hi, can anyone can help me with the following question or pass on my question to someone you know that might be able to help me:

1) I am looking for a working Western Electric Model 13c transmitter. This transmitter was manufactured in the 1930's through the early 1940's. It was capable of transmitting at 50 watts of power.

2) If I can't find a working Western Electric Model 13 c mentioned in (1) and it's not looking good, I would be willing to look for any 50 watt tube type transmitter capable of receiving crystals for transmission on the AM band.

If I can't find that, then I would like to find any newer model 50 watt transmitter capable of sending signals on the AM band.

This has to do with travel next month to a remote island in the Central Pacific by a team of researchers. One of the things we are going to attempt is a recreation of what we believe were post loss radio transmissions from Amelia Earhart in 1937. We believe she transmitted radio distress messages for several days on either 3105 and/or 6210 kilocycles.

Your help and any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

Les Kinney
 

jbantennaman

Completely Banned for the Greater Good
Banned
Joined
Nov 10, 2009
Messages
72
#2
Hi, can anyone can help me with the following question or pass on my question to someone you know that might be able to help me:

1) I am looking for a working Western Electric Model 13c transmitter. This transmitter was manufactured in the 1930's through the early 1940's. It was capable of transmitting at 50 watts of power.

2) If I can't find a working Western Electric Model 13 c mentioned in (1) and it's not looking good, I would be willing to look for any 50 watt tube type transmitter capable of receiving crystals for transmission on the AM band.

If I can't find that, then I would like to find any newer model 50 watt transmitter capable of sending signals on the AM band.

This has to do with travel next month to a remote island in the Central Pacific by a team of researchers. One of the things we are going to attempt is a recreation of what we believe were post loss radio transmissions from Amelia Earhart in 1937. We believe she transmitted radio distress messages for several days on either 3105 and/or 6210 kilocycles.

Your help and any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

Les Kinney
Do you realize that to transmit, you need to have a license.
I'm just saying that you did not mention that you were a licensed ham or your call sign or your class of license.. My opinion is - if you were a licensed ham, you would realize that any older transmitter would have the ability to reduce power to the point of being able to transmit with 50 watts AM..
A Johnson Viking, Knight Kit, Eico, Hallicrafters, Hammurlund - even a brand new Kenwood TS 990 or a Yaesu FT 1000 MP Mark 5 will produce 50 watts AM..
The internet is full of older AM equipment and there is various web sites devoted to AM equipment.
 
Joined
Dec 16, 2013
Messages
341
Location
1158 W. Valley Circle, Ash Fork, AZ 86320-482
#3
Even if you did have a Amateur Radio license, those frequencies (3105 and/or 6210 kilocycles) are not legal amateur frequencies. However, it is possible for you to request a limited use license from the FCC. We do it regularly on the VHF/UHF and microwave bands so they might allow it on the HF bands.

And, as "jbantennaman" said, you can use any transmitter that runs 50 watts AM. It's all pretty much the same. If you put the signal from the Model 13c up against a newer transmitter, running the same power (50W) and mode (AM), you would have a hard time telling the difference. Except that, the newer transmitter might have cleaner audio.

But you haven't mentioned what you are using to receive the signal. Receivers have come a long way from the 30s and 40s. They are far more sensitive and selective these days.

Are you also looking at propagation? Propagation will have a lot to do with whether your signal will get through. And if it gets through, how well it is heard. The two frequencies you mentioned (3105 and/or 6210 kilocycles) are primarily night time frequencies, for long distance communication. During the day, propagation may only be a few hundred miles.

Martin - K7MEM
 

Token

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jun 18, 2010
Messages
2,009
Location
Mojave Desert, California, USA
#4
Hi, can anyone can help me with the following question or pass on my question to someone you know that might be able to help me:

1) I am looking for a working Western Electric Model 13c transmitter. This transmitter was manufactured in the 1930's through the early 1940's. It was capable of transmitting at 50 watts of power.
It is extremely unlikely you will find a working 13c for this effort, and if you do, do you really want to put all your eggs in that basket without a more modern, dependable, backup? It would be a shame to get out on the island and find that the finicky old 13c was not up to snuff when any old off the shelf modern transceiver would do.

You need to define that “50 Watts of power”, was that 50 carrier Watts? Or was it 50 Watts PEP? Total output power. Sidebands plus carrier?

Since the 13c used dual 282A tubes on the final RF amplifier I suspect it was capable of 50 Watts of carrier and 100% modulation, which is more than 50 Watts of output.

2) If I can't find a working Western Electric Model 13 c mentioned in (1) and it's not looking good, I would be willing to look for any 50 watt tube type transmitter capable of receiving crystals for transmission on the AM band.
Why specify tube type or crystal controlled? A transmission is a transmission is a transmission. If it is on the right frequency (be it modern digital or crystal controlled), if it is in the right transmission mode (AM is a mode, not a band), and if it is at the right power level, there is no real difference between a modern radio and a 80 year old tube radio. Other than minor variations in the way they sound there is no difference in performance capability.

If I can't find that, then I would like to find any newer model 50 watt transmitter capable of sending signals on the AM band.
Again, AM is a mode, not a band. AM can be sent on any band, any frequency, although by convention it is not used on many today.

There are many radios made today that will do what you ask. Licensing is an issue, you do need a license to transmit. However if you are not particularly worried about that most modern ham radios can be MARS/CAP modded and transmit on those frequencies.

Use of such a radio may or may not be legal, depending on what specific island you want to operate from, and what licensing control that territory falls under.

This has to do with travel next month to a remote island in the Central Pacific by a team of researchers. One of the things we are going to attempt is a recreation of what we believe were post loss radio transmissions from Amelia Earhart in 1937. We believe she transmitted radio distress messages for several days on either 3105 and/or 6210 kilocycles.

Your help and any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

Les Kinney
You have a few other issues in this endevour.

Based on your statement above, “next month”, you will be making transmissions in Dec of 2016. I think the scheduled dates of transmission are Dec 14 and 15, 2016, at 1900 UTC (1400 EST) each day?

Have you considered that holds essentially no relationship at all to potential Earhart or Noonan transmissions?

Earhart went missing on July 2, 1937. The reported receptions occurred over the next few days. That was mid summer, and your planned reenactment dates are in the winter. Propagation (the way radio travels from one location to another) is very different between those two times of the year.

Early July, 1937, was almost the peak of Solar Cycle 17 (actual peak April that year), Dec 2016 is on the downwards side in a singularly low Solar Cycle 24. Propagation will be extremely different from what was encountered in July of 1937.

When you look at the frequencies used the impact of this becomes even more important. 3105 kHz and 6210 kHz. And some have claimed that some of the transmissions were heard on harmonics of those frequencies. That is two different issues.

3105 and 6210 kHz are at the lower end of the HF band. They have specific propagation features. Both of these frequencies propagate well at night, and poorly during the day, for long range they want a nighttime or dark path from transmitter to receiver. They propagate over moderate to short distances in a fully daytime path. You proposed reenactment time of 1900 UTC is roughly near sunrise at the source location, but mid day to afternoon in the US.

If you combine the current Solar Cycle conditions with time of year, time of day, and frequency selection, it simply is not going to work. Or rather, I should say, without some exceptional, unpredictable, and far outside the norm, conditions, these transmissions will not be heard in the US from such a transmission location.

However the conditions today are FAR better than they would have been in 1937, since at that time, given the same factors, the transmissions were even less likely to be heard. While the current conditions to hear such a transmission are abysmally poor, they are better than the conditions that existed on July 2, 1937. All of the factors above that I indicate are working against you were worse in July of 1937.

T!
 
Last edited:

W9BU

Lead Wiki Manager
Super Moderator
Joined
Jul 18, 2004
Messages
5,689
Location
Brownsburg, Indiana
#5
Folks, the OP hasn't logged into RR since he started this thread.

If he doesn't respond, I think it might be best to just leave this thread lie.
 
Joined
Nov 28, 2016
Messages
8
#6
Response - transmissions from the Pacific

Do you realize that to transmit, you need to have a license.
I'm just saying that you did not mention that you were a licensed ham or your call sign or your class of license.. My opinion is - if you were a licensed ham, you would realize that any older transmitter would have the ability to reduce power to the point of being able to transmit with 50 watts AM..
A Johnson Viking, Knight Kit, Eico, Hallicrafters, Hammurlund - even a brand new Kenwood TS 990 or a Yaesu FT 1000 MP Mark 5 will produce 50 watts AM..
The internet is full of older AM equipment and there is various web sites devoted to AM equipment.
Yes, we realize a license is required. One of us has that. With that said, we are going to be transmitting for less than a total time of 30 minutes in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. There are pirate stations broadcasting AM for hours a day from Mexico, ships and land sites, and around the world. We won't be violating any nation's laws.

We have a transmitter ready to go at 50 watts.

Thanks,
Les Kinney
 
Joined
Nov 28, 2016
Messages
8
#7
Please note the new times and date

We would like everyone's help. We are going to attempt to duplicate that 1937 transmission from this remote island. We will try to begin with a continuous wave so you may tune in. We will use Earhart's identifying call sign of KHAQQ to begin the broadcast. We will broadcast twice: at 12:30 pm or 1230 hours Eastern Standard Time (EST) and again at 1:00 pm EST or 1300 hours on two successive days, December 15, and 16th, 2016.

The first broadcast will be on 6210 kilocycles and will last for one minute. We will repeat the message twice, two minutes apart. After the third transmission on 6210 kilocycles, there will be a three minute pause and we will then broadcast the same message on 3105 kilocycles for one minute, three times, with a two minute delay after each message.

We know this is a long shot. We can't duplicate the atmospheric conditions from July 1937 and there is so much more RF interference in 2016. But it is worth a try. We are asking everyone having a receiver capable of listening to this broadcast to tune in on these frequencies. Whether you have an old 1930's radio, or a modern radio with short wave capabilities, keep your cell phone cameras and video cameras ready to capture the moment. Flash the camera on your set and then to yourself while you record our broadcast. If you're lucky enough to pick up the transmission, you will likely get five seconds of fame on a future TV documentary.

If you do receive our Earhart recreated broadcast and capture the message on your cell phone camera or camcorder, call us on site in the Marshall Islands via satellite phone. That number is: 011-881-651-463-951.

Please pass this message on to any other radio groups, forums, or interested friends.
 
Joined
Dec 15, 2011
Messages
280
Location
MS Gulf Coast
#10
Les, before you embark on this expedition, spending a few minutes with radio propagation software would be well worth your time. Here's a free online program that's fairly easy to use: VOACAP Online Coverage Area HF Predictions

Using that, in about 15 minutes it's easy to show that in July 1937 Earhart's 50w low-HF AM transmissions could barely reach to New Guinea, and that it would be nearly impossible for them to reach North America. It would also show you that trying to replicate these transmissions this winter has little to do with the radio conditions of that summer 80 years ago, and is nearly certain to fail.

Now, if you're interested in filming a reenactment of someone operating a vintage radio, that's cool and I want to watch the results. However, if you're trying to show what was possible in 1937, this winter isn't the time. PM me if you have further questions, or need help with the propagation simulations.
 

jbantennaman

Completely Banned for the Greater Good
Banned
Joined
Nov 10, 2009
Messages
72
#11
I tried to be kind, because I tend to come off a little abrasive when I try to explain things to dummies.
I think this person already hinted to what they are going to do in his quote, there is Pirate Stations operating all the time with no license.
Each country in the Telegraphy Union has their own rules and I saw nothing in the applications for the US FCC, so this point is moot.
If they had a license, it wouldn't have hurt them to have posted the call sign assigned.

No one in the USA has a license to boot leg on those frequencies anyways - so both ends would be illegal and it would be irrelevant.

Who has this type of equipment you say - well probably someone from The Antique Wireless Association, John D. is the first person that comes to mind.
 
Joined
Apr 3, 2014
Messages
1,275
#12
Please note the new times and date

We would like everyone's help. We are going to attempt to duplicate that 1937 transmission from this remote island. We will try to begin with a continuous wave so you may tune in. We will use Earhart's identifying call sign of KHAQQ to begin the broadcast. We will broadcast twice: at 12:30 pm or 1230 hours Eastern Standard Time (EST) and again at 1:00 pm EST or 1300 hours on two successive days, December 15, and 16th, 2016.

The first broadcast will be on 6210 kilocycles and will last for one minute. We will repeat the message twice, two minutes apart. After the third transmission on 6210 kilocycles, there will be a three minute pause and we will then broadcast the same message on 3105 kilocycles for one minute, three times, with a two minute delay after each message.

We know this is a long shot. We can't duplicate the atmospheric conditions from July 1937 and there is so much more RF interference in 2016. But it is worth a try. We are asking everyone having a receiver capable of listening to this broadcast to tune in on these frequencies. Whether you have an old 1930's radio, or a modern radio with short wave capabilities, keep your cell phone cameras and video cameras ready to capture the moment. Flash the camera on your set and then to yourself while you record our broadcast. If you're lucky enough to pick up the transmission, you will likely get five seconds of fame on a future TV documentary.

If you do receive our Earhart recreated broadcast and capture the message on your cell phone camera or camcorder, call us on site in the Marshall Islands via satellite phone. That number is: 011-881-651-463-951.

Please pass this message on to any other radio groups, forums, or interested friends.
Didn't realize that this effort was for the making of a TV documentary. Should be an interesting show.
 
Joined
Jun 30, 2006
Messages
7,538
Location
So Cal - Richardson, TX - Tewksbury, MA
#14
I hope to be near a radio in So Cal those days but I doubt if I will hear anything. At those times you might get 500-1,000mi on 6Mhz but not very far at all on 3Mhz.
prcguy

Edit: looking at the time again that would be around 5:30am and 6:00am in the Marshall Islands. You might be heard several thousand miles on both frequencies at that time with less success the farther east you go. Asia, Australia and Hawaii might be good places to advertise for listeners.

Please note the new times and date

We would like everyone's help. We are going to attempt to duplicate that 1937 transmission from this remote island. We will try to begin with a continuous wave so you may tune in. We will use Earhart's identifying call sign of KHAQQ to begin the broadcast. We will broadcast twice: at 12:30 pm or 1230 hours Eastern Standard Time (EST) and again at 1:00 pm EST or 1300 hours on two successive days, December 15, and 16th, 2016.

The first broadcast will be on 6210 kilocycles and will last for one minute. We will repeat the message twice, two minutes apart. After the third transmission on 6210 kilocycles, there will be a three minute pause and we will then broadcast the same message on 3105 kilocycles for one minute, three times, with a two minute delay after each message.

We know this is a long shot. We can't duplicate the atmospheric conditions from July 1937 and there is so much more RF interference in 2016. But it is worth a try. We are asking everyone having a receiver capable of listening to this broadcast to tune in on these frequencies. Whether you have an old 1930's radio, or a modern radio with short wave capabilities, keep your cell phone cameras and video cameras ready to capture the moment. Flash the camera on your set and then to yourself while you record our broadcast. If you're lucky enough to pick up the transmission, you will likely get five seconds of fame on a future TV documentary.

If you do receive our Earhart recreated broadcast and capture the message on your cell phone camera or camcorder, call us on site in the Marshall Islands via satellite phone. That number is: 011-881-651-463-951.

Please pass this message on to any other radio groups, forums, or interested friends.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
1,300
Location
Henrico County, VA
#16
I agree that more on-air time might be needed for those trying to tune in to be able to have any success.

One question, where would the Earheart expedition support team have been located at that time? Were the frequencies you plan to use set aside in those days for distress calls? Were they known military frequencies?
I'm just wondering why those particular frequencies chosen.

Sounds very interesting indeed!
 
Joined
Feb 18, 2015
Messages
294
Location
where they make the cheese
#17
maybe try it in another 8 or 9 years when the solar conditions could be similar to those of July 1939
i know 6mhz isnt so solar bound as upper frequencies but its does matter
apples to apples sort of thing

and being a dullard... did they use 6mhz? on her Electra ? (gorgeous plane the electra )
i dont see any references on that without digging
 

N4GIX

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
May 27, 2015
Messages
1,758
Location
Hammond, IN
#19
I passed this along to two of my friends who have the interest and equipment to monitor for this activity. They asked me "What group is doing this?" to which my reply was "I've no idea."

So, what group is doing this? :D
 

ka3jjz

Wiki Admin Emeritus
Joined
Jul 22, 2002
Messages
21,694
Location
Bowie, Md.
#20
Neither 6210 KHz (which is on the outer edges of the 49m broadcast band) nor 3105 KHz (which I think is reserved for aero off route) are within the amateur service.

For places where 49mb is still dark, you might have issues with a few international broadcasters that wander up that far (even tho they're not supposed to...).

Would be more interesting if we could do this without having to resort to a remote receiver, but for us Easterners, that's the only shot - if a long one - we would have.

Mike
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top