Amps VS volts... having a stupid moment

[Toastedwaves]

In simple terms, chargers send electricity to something that "has less" than they do--in other words, when a charger has an "excess" of electricity and a discharged battery, or a device, "needs" electricity, then the charger sends its "excess" to the "needy" device.

If you only use one charger, and it attempts to charge a discharged battery, or to power/charge a device, the charger will always be in the situation of "having an excess" when compared to the discharged battery or device.

But, if you connect two chargers together without proper isolation, there will be (many) moments (in the charging cycle) where one charger thinks that it has an "excess" when compared to the other charger, and will try to send its own excess to the other charger.

This is the problem.

In case it helps explain a little more, the charging cycles are patterned after a sine-wave, not a constant-line. There will be times when one charger's cycle is not the same as the other charger's cycle, and if they are not isolated, they will try to "charge" the other charger.

Does this make things any clearer?

EDIT: All of my notes above are discussing two identical chargers. If the chargers are not identical, then the problem gets worse.

Hope this helps,

Yes I see what you are saying QDP2012 and thanks alot btw! I'm gonna sound a little arrogant here, and that is not my intent at all, I know that I'm a complete n00b with electric/electronic, but I would disagree with your premise that one charger would try and charge the other one when it 'inflates' and need to feed it's excess out. It would go to the laptop battery, or directly to one of my numerous USB toys, as those will always be the 'weakest point' or 'the most empty point'... I would imagine. I'm probly wrong about this though, as everyone telling me otherwise. Hmm. Interesting all this..

 

[QDP2012]

Yes I see what you are saying QDP2012 and thanks alot btw! I'm gonna sound a little arrogant here, and that is not my intent at all,

No problem.

I know that I'm a complete n00b with electric/electronic, but I would disagree with your premise that one charger would try and charge the other one when it 'inflates' and need to feed it's excess out. It would go to the laptop battery, or directly to one of my numerous USB toys, as those will always be the 'weakest point' or 'the most empty point'... I would imagine. I'm probly wrong about this though, as everyone telling me otherwise. Hmm. Interesting all this..

I understand what you are describing about the device being the "weakest point". When discussing the situation in simple terms, this seems correct. And, if the true math was simply Charger1 + Charger2 = Device, then you would be correct. But, the real math is more complicated than that.

And, that explanation requires more theory, and possibly discussion about the specific device, whether or not you have a battery or capacitor between the chargers and the device, etc., what differences there are between the two chargers, what built-in protection is protecting the device from spikes, what the risk is of both chargers spiking at the same time and nailing the device with a charge it was not designed to prevent, what protection each charger has that prevents electricity from flowing the wrong way, etc.

From a do-it-right perspective, it comes down to two choices: either get the correct isolator for your two-charger circuit-design, or get one charger that does the job safely.

Otherwise, even if you have two "identical" chargers, it's still risky.

And, as another cautionary-point, I know of cases where an improperly-functioning power-supply fried a computer's motherboard because of a spike the motherboard could not handle. Manufacturers know the tolerances of their approved parts and peripherals. The two-charger design could create a spike that your motherboard cannot handle, and you could be in a worse situation than you are now.

I hope things work out for you one way or the other.

Hope this helps,

 

[Toastedwaves]

yes, I'm thinking i'm thinking... oye. A buffer in between would be the safe way to go for sure.

I surely don't want to fry my mobo, or battery pack. That would suck.

Oh and QDP2012, yes I will use 2 identical charger. If I try that.

Thanks alot all! May need a vote on the mater eventually. I'm more of a 'Yay' than a 'Nay' right now.

 

[CapStar362]

ummm sorry to be off topic, but no laptop has the power to "eat a desktop" for performance.... id love to see these "Beast" specs. whats the suffix of your model # P850-????



i seriously doubt you have ANYTHING close to some of our desktops


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back on topic, you do realize that the charger will only pull the maximum amperage when charging the battery and in the highest performance state right?


4 wifi adapters? are you aggregating a network? trying to quad-rate your internet speed? 20 USB Ports ehh? i bet those are all "POWERED" hubs connected to a AC Adapter themselves, and not self powered by the port itself.


ill be honest here, i smell a spambot/troll. OP JUST joined the forums.... this month..... claiming to have a "Beast" of a laptop that can outperform a desktop... 20 USB Ports, 4 Wifi Adapters..... ummm yeah.











just for stinks and giggles,


My "Beast"

Intel IvyBridge 3770K Clocked @ 4.5 GHz
8GB XMP 1.3 Profiled DDR3 1600 PC3-12800
2x nVidia 650Ti BOOST SSC 2GB Cards (eVGA)


so ill await your "Beast" model suffix and well just see

 

[QDP2012]

yes, I'm thinking i'm thinking... oye. A buffer in between would be the safe way to go for sure.

I surely don't want to fry my mobo, or battery pack. That would suck.

Oh and QDP2012, yes I will use 2 identical charger. If I try that.

Thanks alot all! May need a vote on the mater eventually. I'm more of a 'Yay' than a 'Nay' right now.

Understand, though, that the definition of "identical" I was using above is strictly relating to the advanced theory that is beyond this discussion. For all practical purposes, no two chargers are ever identical unless you get them as a matched set from a manufacturer who certifies that they are identical. And that would be the same manufacturer who would also sell an isolator to go with the two chargers, because the chargers need to be isolated from each other. A battery/capacitor described above was only between the charging system and the device, not between chargers.

I think you will find that it requires more labor, more money, and more risk to pursue the two-charger theory, than to get the right charger.

And as far as voting yes or no on a two-charger design, I would have to vote no in advance, based only on the unnacceptable risk of damage to equipment. Since you describe yourself as a "noob", I would strongly recommend you spend most of your time researching the theories of circuit-fundamentals, circuit-isolation, and charging-systems, before risking your valuable computer to what would be basically guess-work.


Hope this helps,

P.S. You might want to back-up your entire hard drive before doing any of the experimental stuff you've described.

 

[Toastedwaves]

I could answer your questioning above, post pics if I have to, but will instead let you wonder... funnier that way.

If I didn't get your sense of humor (after all I'm a little thick), I apologize and will comply with your requests.

 

[Toastedwaves]

Understand, though, that the definition of "identical" I was using above is strictly relating to the advanced theory that is beyond this discussion. For all practical purposes, no two chargers are ever identical unless you get them as a matched set from a manufacturer who certifies that they are identical. And that would be the same manufacturer who would also sell an isolator to go with the two chargers, because the chargers need to be isolated from each other. A battery/capacitor described above was only between the charging system and the device, not between chargers.

I think you will find that it requires more labor, more money, and more risk to pursue the two-charger theory, than to get the right charger.

And as far as voting yes or no on a two-charger design, I would have to vote no in advance, based only on the unnacceptable risk of damage to equipment. Since you describe yourself as a "noob", I would strongly recommend you spend most of your time researching the theories of circuit-fundamentals, circuit-isolation, and charging-systems, before risking your valuable computer to what would be basically guess-work.


Hope this helps,

P.S. You might want to back-up your entire hard drive before doing any of the experiemental stuff you've described.

Oh yes, I always have backups. Sometimes 2 or 3 of the same depending on the importance of the content.

oki so...

Yays 1
Nays 1

 

[feets]

Oh yes, I always have backups. Sometimes 2 or 3 of the same depending on the importance of the content.

oki so...

Yays 1
Nays 1

One more Nay.

QDP2012 is absolutely correct.

He explained in simple terms but the problem is not that simple in reality.

 

[CapStar362]

sure.... im the troll.... wow. popcorn is ready now.

this is hilarious, you join a community for radio enthusiasts and scanner hobbyists, yes okay we have a PC Support Section, but you come here and make your first impression by bragging on a laptop that has the power to outperform a desktop? just because you have 4 wifi adapters, 20 USB ports and whatever else "computer maniac" gadgets you may have....doesnt mean diddly squat!

your CPU, a MOBILE based cpu has nothing on a full powered desktop CPU.

mobile CPU's are reduced capability versions of desktop cpu's.

oh BTW: the BEST CPU you can get into your "Beast" a I7 3630QM, has no match against a 3770K clocked @ 4.5GHz

your 1TB Hybrid Drive .... not bad, but its the only drive you have internally. i havea total of 4 drives, 3 mechanical and 1 pure SSD - INTERNALLY

your RAM, while being the same as mine 8GB of DDR3 1600, your probably running proprietary sticks with no XMP capability.... HUGE drawback

sooo.... you have HDMI, whoopty doo. so do I, running a 42" LED TV....whats the GPU of your laptop? everything im showing, either a Intel HD4000 Integrated Graphics or a SINGLE 660M by nVidia. sooo mr eat desktops, you might have a Single nVidia GPU, but guess what.... i have 2 GPU's in my desktop in SLi

id run doggy poo circles around your laptop. whats your WEI Score? i just attached mine with part of this post in the background to show you that im not joking.









my point? just because this is a radio website... dont think that some of us do know what we are talking about. your first impression..... is your ONLY one. ive been Certified as a Hardware Specialist through CompTIA since 2003 for PC and Laptop hardware. and i keep my stuff up to date.



either way, im done..... your not worth my time

 

[Toastedwaves]

oye, yes you are a troll and you are off topic, but don't seem like a bad guy, just in need of a little attention, so I will keep you company for a little bit here...

I was going to open an account on an 'electric' forum for my original question, then opted not to do so, remembering that I had an account here, that I opened because I got into SDR and had questions regarding antennas, thinking that surly, someone here would enlightening me. I was correct.

My computer usage is none of your business. But you do have a good point about using external power for my USB hubs (totaling 22). That killed my charger, or contributed to make it 'expire' before it's time (?). Now I know.

Most computers, in the world, are not gaming computers. My laptop is a gaming computer. Therefore I got >most< desktop computer beaten. Let me know if you do not understand that.

Cheers.

 

[KC4RAF]

I am a retired electrician/electrical trades teachers,

and a few other note worthy titles to boot; and to do as you wish requires some serious study. One of which is phase relationship between the two transformers. If they are out of phase, you got a problem. And there's a few other things that have to be addressed; protection of the transformers, protection of the device being charged, and safety of the experimenter, his home and of course other humans. Unless you are well versed in electrical/electronics, you'd best be advised to follow the other posters.

 

[feets]

sure.... im the troll.... wow. popcorn is ready now.

this is hilarious, you join a community for radio enthusiasts and scanner hobbyists, yes okay we have a PC Support Section, but you come here and make your first impression by bragging on a laptop that has the power to outperform a desktop? just because you have 4 wifi adapters, 20 USB ports and whatever else "computer maniac" gadgets you may have....doesnt mean diddly squat!

Yes, I'm afraid you are the troll.

He never claimed his laptop would outperform all desktops. It does indeed outperform my desktop and likely most desktops as he claims since,,,,,,well,,,,,,,,,most people are just happy with a computer that works.

You've yet to address his problem and have only posted irrelevant garbage. That is, by definition, a troll.

2 Yay votes for Cap trolling.
1 Nay.

 

[CapStar362]

I was going to open an account on an 'electric' forum for my original question, then opted not to do so, remembering that I had an account here, that I opened because I got into SDR and had questions regarding antennas, thinking that surly, someone here would enlightening me. I was correct.

My computer usage is none of your business. But you do have a good point about using external power for my USB hubs (totaling 22). That killed my charger, or contributed to make it 'expire' before it's time (?). Now I know.

Most computers, in the world, are not gaming computers. My laptop is a gaming computer. Therefore I got >most< desktop computer beaten. Let me know if you do not understand that.

Cheers.

yup okay, according to your account.... First joined: Nov 2013


im not getting into your usage, i could care less about your usage.

so you had 22 "Self" powered devices? or were they attached to powered hubs?

if they were attached to powered hubs, then no they did not kill your charger. powered hubs, provide power to the usb devices independent of the host device's power by means of a separate adapter. only the data T/R pins are active, the VDC +5 line is not connected and the ground pin is just there for protection, thus no power is being drawn from your laptop to the hubs, only the data signals are being transferred.

if they were self powered, i have no earthly idea how you got 22 of them to work. you might want to read up on USB Ports, specifically the power section. and the limitations of how much power you can draw from a single port


USB - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Toastedwaves]

and a few other note worthy titles to boot; and to do as you wish requires some serious study. One of which is phase relationship between the two transformers. If they are out of phase, you got a problem. And there's a few other things that have to be addressed; protection of the transformers, protection of the device being charged, and safety of the experimenter, his home and of course other humans. Unless you are well versed in electrical/electronics, you'd best be advised to follow the other posters.

out of phase transformers. Ah yes. Ouch. not good.
Many thanks rafdav!

 

[QDP2012]

out of phase transformers. Ah yes. Ouch. not good.
Many thanks rafdav!

Out-of-phase refers to the sine-wave pattern mentioned in earlier posts, and is what an isolator prevents.

 

[CapStar362]

so okay, "Beast" aside.... your USB devices may have minimally caused the charger issue. but i doubt that.


so now, BS aside, what kind of devices are these? are they self powered, or do you have them daisy chained across powered hubs?


why i ask?

read below

if they were powered hubs, they dont even draw from the host device, as the hubs provide the power for the devices. in powered hubs, the VDC5+ Pin is not even connceted. in self powered devices, they have a VDC5+ @ <=500mA line in the cable . if you trip the USB fusible link, windows/BIOS will reset the hub. if you SURGE that fuse, it blows it, oops, time for a new fusible link or if you cant find someone willing to solder on such a small component a whole new board or smaller daughter card controlling the usb port.


that many devices drawing that much power would have killed the fusible links on the board rendering the said daisy chained USB ports ( probably 4-6 at the most on the laptop ) dead....before the charger even got affected from the board side.

 

[Toastedwaves]

yup okay, according to your account.... First joined: Nov 2013


im not getting into your usage, i could care less about your usage.

so you had 22 "Self" powered devices? or were they attached to powered hubs?

if they were attached to powered hubs, then no they did not kill your charger. powered hubs, provide power to the usb devices independent of the host device's power by means of a separate adapter. only the data T/R pins are active, the VDC +5 line is not connected and the ground pin is just there for protection, thus no power is being drawn from your laptop to the hubs, only the data signals are being transferred.

if they were self powered, i have no earthly idea how you got 22 of them to work. you might want to read up on USB Ports, specifically the power section. and the limitations of how much power you can draw from a single port


USB - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have a total of 22 USB ports on 4 hubs. None of them were self powered. The 5v 'juice' came from the original laptop ports. So that's 20v(?) right there. That was negligence on my part. It worked fine, but that overtaxed the charger, resulting in the situation that I have now. I ran 4 wifi, 2 SDR, a keyboard, a mouse, USBkeys, iPad, headset, dels... And the operations themselves are CPU intensive, some require GPU also. It all, was abit much. Not surprised that the charger 'quit'.

 

[CapStar362]

no its still 5V, regardless of the number of devices. the amperage will build with more devices, but the voltage stays the same. so the hubs? did they have adapters? if no, then yes, you did draw more than available, but i find it unusual that the ports didnt trip themselves from high draw.


ive done the same thing on accident, but the moment i did it..... windows threw me a "USB OverPower Warning" and stated that the hub was disabled until the high draw was removed and i acknowledge a "reset"


what revision ports are these? 1.0/1.1/2.0/3.0??

 

[Toastedwaves]

USB 2.0 with 3.0 option.

I see what you are saying about the 5v. Regardless, the hamster was spinning the wheel at 92mph, and I killed it.

Yes all my hubs have external power option, but not all of them have the transformer with it. Still I had 2 available and did not use it. Meh.

Out-of-phase refers to the sine-wave pattern mentioned in earlier posts, and is what an isolator prevents.

yes I'm learning

 

[Toastedwaves]

Just another question here.. If both chargers share the same power cord (AC), would that synchronize the transformers?