Analog encryption

[Deani]

I'm looking for a radio that has the ability to be encrypted using an analog signal. My goal is to be able to talk in mountain areas without any trees or terrain interference. I have tried digital encryption in these areas and it doesn't work very well. Does anyone know of a handheld and base radio that will encrypt analog?

 

[KevinC]

As far as I know you can’t use encryption in the amateur radio service.

 

[drdispatch]

Unless you're in Nebraska or Kansas, no matter what type of signal you use, you will inevitably have "terrain interference".

 

[N4KVL]

If P25 or DMR encryption is not working, you are going to be sorely disappointed by VSELP Securenet...

What you need is a repeater at the mountaintop.

 

[chief21]

I'm looking for a radio that has the ability to be encrypted using an analog signal. My goal is to be able to talk in mountain areas without any trees or terrain interference.

I'm confused. What does encryption have to do with signal attenuation from trees or terrain?

 

[mmckenna]

I'm looking for a radio that has the ability to be encrypted using an analog signal.

You posted this in the amateur radio forum. Using encryption/scrambling is not permitted by the FCC with the exception of "telecommand" of amateur radio satellites.

My goal is to be able to talk in mountain areas without any trees or terrain interference.

You need to give us some more information on how much range you are expecting. Topographical features are going to impact radio coverage unless you go down into the HF bands and bounce stuff off the ionosphere. If you are looking for a VHF or UHF radio to do this, you'll have some challenges.

I have tried digital encryption in these areas and it doesn't work very well.

Encryption doesn't impact range of the signal.

Does anyone know of a handheld and base radio that will encrypt analog?

You won't find amateur radios that will do encryption or analog legally.
GMRS, MURS, FRS don't allow it either.

If you have a business type FCC license, you can run encryption/scrambling all you want.

As for which kind of radio, you need to give us more information:

What kind of FCC issued license do you currently hold, or are you willing to get?
What kind of range do you need? Be realistic about your needs, more range = more money.
What is your budget?

 

[Deani]

Right now I'm operating on a VHF channel. It does fine in the terrain I'm in as far as range. I would just like to know what options, if any, to be able to encrypt this channel. As far as budget, I don't care. I just wanna find a radio that will encrypt in the VHF bands.

 

[KevinC]

Right now I'm operating on a VHF channel. It does fine in the terrain I'm in as far as range. I would just like to know what options, if any, to be able to encrypt this channel. As far as budget, I don't care. I just wanna find a radio that will encrypt in the VHF bands.

As I noted in the first reply, encryption isn't allowed in the amateur radio service.

Is this amateur radio or some other service?

 

[radioman2008]

I have personally tested analog DES encryption on an old Motorola MX portable years ago. it was quite raspy, even at close range of a few hundred feet. i then tested digital encryption on some astro sabers, one pair used DES VESELP DIGITAL encryption and the other used P25 DES DIGITAL
the digital encryption was much clearer and maintained that clearness for the effective range of the digital signal, no different than running clear VSELP or P25

I wouldn't waste time screwing around with the old analog DES, it's a curious thing to play with but, not to actually have to listen to for use.

 

[mmckenna]

Right now I'm operating on a VHF channel. It does fine in the terrain I'm in as far as range. I would just like to know what options, if any, to be able to encrypt this channel. As far as budget, I don't care. I just wanna find a radio that will encrypt in the VHF bands.

Well, not sure what you mean by "VHF channel". If it's ham, you can't use scrambling/encryption, and some other ham will probably narc on you.

If you have a legit part 90 license, you can run all the encryption you want. Analog scrambling can be iffy out on the fringes. If VHF is working for you, then stick with that.

If you don't mind us asking, why do you need encryption?

 

[RayAir]

I'm looking for a radio that has the ability to be encrypted using an analog signal. My goal is to be able to talk in mountain areas without any trees or terrain interference. I have tried digital encryption in these areas and it doesn't work very well. Does anyone know of a handheld and base radio that will encrypt analog?

The only commonly available analog scrambling is fixed voice inversion.
Definitely not encryption.

I've used some of the Transcrypt 460 rolling code inversion boards in Vertex VHF radios before and they worked good outdoors. They provide a decent amount of privacy.

You'll be hard pressed to find any analog "encryption" worth the effort as they don't really make those products anymore. Transcrypt went away years ago. Midian is still around but they make sub par products. At least the TVS-2 is junk.
You could run TVS-2 scrambled audio through a fixed inversion descrambler and make out most of the conversation.
They sent me some audio samples.

If you tried digital encryption on VHF and it didn't work well outdoors then analog encryption won't really be any better.

 

[SCFDCOMM]

You posted this in the amateur radio forum. Using encryption/scrambling is not permitted by the FCC with the exception of "telecommand" of amateur radio satellites.



You need to give us some more information on how much range you are expecting. Topographical features are going to impact radio coverage unless you go down into the HF bands and bounce stuff off the ionosphere. If you are looking for a VHF or UHF radio to do this, you'll have some challenges.



Encryption doesn't impact range of the signal.



You won't find amateur radios that will do encryption or analog legally.
GMRS, MURS, FRS don't allow it either.

If you have a business type FCC license, you can run encryption/scrambling all you want.

As for which kind of radio, you need to give us more information:

What kind of FCC issued license do you currently hold, or are you willing to get?
What kind of range do you need? Be realistic about your needs, more range = more money.
What is your budget?

Encryption doesn't impact range of the signal. , Yes it actually does when using analog modulation.

 

[krokus]

VHF with encryption capability:

PRC-25 Radio Set | N6CC

www.n6cc.com

 

[jimmy9999]

Hello Radioman2008,

I have personally tested analog DES encryption on an old Motorola MX portable years ago. it was quite raspy, even at close range of a few hundred feet. i then tested digital encryption on some astro sabers, one pair used DES VESELP DIGITAL encryption and the other used P25 DES DIGITAL

What is analog DES encryption ? Is it some analog band split ? (time division scrambling)

Encryption doesn't impact range of the signal.

Hello mmckenna,

Are you sure? Because if you use an error propagation cipher (such as the CFB cipher return mode), the range will be reduced by the encryption because as soon as there is an error that cannot be corrected by the FEC, the CFB mode prevents decoding. Only modes without error propagation (such as counter mode) do not reduce the range.

 

[mmckenna]

Hello mmckenna,

Are you sure? Because if you use an error propagation cipher (such as the CFB cipher return mode), the range will be reduced by the encryption because as soon as there is an error that cannot be corrected by the FEC, the CFB mode prevents decoding. Only modes without error propagation (such as counter mode) do not reduce the range.

If you are on the fringes of coverage and lose bits that easily, it's probably going to be a pretty awful signal and hard for even FEC to handle. In general terms, encryption does not reduce range enough for the end user to notice.

Unfortunately where this often gets brought up (not referring to your post) is scanner listeners trying to find fault with an agency switching to encryption and claiming it's going to "drastically" reduce range, which it does not.

 

[radioman2008]

Hello Radioman2008,

I have personally tested analog DES encryption on an old Motorola MX portable years ago. it was quite raspy, even at close range of a few hundred feet. i then tested digital encryption on some astro sabers, one pair used DES VESELP DIGITAL encryption and the other used P25 DES DIGITAL

What is analog DES encryption ? Is it some analog band split ? (time division scrambling)

Analog DES encryption SUCKS!
If you want to play and learn on commercial freqs thats fine but to actually talk and listen to analog DES...it gives me a headache.

analog DES converts audio to a digital code then transmits it over the air and is decoded on the other units with the correct encryption key, there is alot of background hash in the audio, i call it raspy. lots of listening fatigue. it requires a Keyloader.
again, you want to USE encryption, so I would not waste your time on analog DES.

VHF is a better choice than UHF for longer range communication. you say VHF analog works.......well digital will typically work better in the fringe of analog.
as others have mentioned encryption is not allowed in the ham band. the closest you will legally get to encryption is finding several OLD astro sabers that run VSELP digital in the clear. it is NOT encryption, but no scanners or other ham radios can decode it. only another VSELP radio programmed for your exact freq can, which is rare. most old VSELP police radios were upgraded to P25 in the late 90s

someone without a VSELP radio would hear your communications sound like this....
search YouTube for MOTOROLA VSELP MX360, there's a video demonstrating VSELP hash on an analog radio.
search YouTube for MOTOROLA VSELP ASTRO SPECTRA for a digital audio example vid
again, VSELP radios are RARE and often the ebay seller would have no clue they have VSELP radio, even the flashcode doesn't directly indicate it, you have to infer its vselp based on what it doesnt show. such as, the flash does NOT show P25, and it does NOT show Q241 analog only. that indicates factory VSELP, but.....the radio could have been upgraded to P25 and the tag might not reflect that.

your best bet.......get a XTL5000 VHF with P25 with DES-XL boards. then get a Motorola DX keyloader with DES module.
you will need the keyloader cable aswell as setting up the codeplug.

if you dont have any experience with programming Motorola radios, and getting cables, and software and keyloader there is a steep learning curve for you.

hope I have helped you in some positive way.

 

[mmckenna]

The OP hasn't been back in over 2 months. I think they are probably off doing whatever they want, regardless of any discussions going on here.

 

[wtp]

seems he got a firm NO and took his toys and went away.....