Are all Freight/Amtrak/VRE Trains still calling signals on CSX/RFP subdivision?

[radio]

I was talking to a family member who lives next to the RFP line in Fredericksburg who just got a radio, He told me all he hears calling the signals now are Amtrak on the road 161.550 road frequency. I remember living back in VA 10 years ago, all CSX/RFP trains as well as those on the Capital, Metropolitan and Alexandria divisions as well as Norfolk Southern always call each signal. Did something change there?

I know living out here in Colorado, the Union Pacific and BNSF trains never call signals..

 

[INDY72]

Here in Indianapolis, I rarely hear "calling" of signals, as most of it is automated now on CSX anyway. Not sure if they have fully automated on the smaller lines. Just like with switching, most of it is automated on the CSX mains. With ATCS, the need to "call" signals is gone. Now if there is a failure for some reason, they would still use the old methods, but that is rarer now. Same for manual switching and needing to get "track warrants" for individual sections. On the smaller lines, that don't have it all automated, there is still manual switching etc. CSX here still does their version of "track warrants" but they are a lot different than they used to be 10 or more years ago. Back then they included the switches needed to be thrown etc. Not now. Now its all up on a display screen for the folks in Jacksonville, FL to watch real time.

 

[fredva]

I live in the Fredericksburg area and noticed a reduction in CSX traffic awhile ago.

 

[radio]

Not hearing the trains calling signals on the radio has taken away a huge part of the enjoyment of railfanning.

 

[AK9R]

I think there are different schools of thought about calling signals.

One school says that it gives anyone listening an audible verification that the train crew is alert and paying attention to the signals. However, if the "road" channel isn't being monitored and recorded anywhere, I'm not sure there's any value to calling signals. And, with PTC in place just about everywhere, all sorts of alerts go off in the dispatcher's office and the engine cab (and probably the superintendent's office) if a train exceeds the authority granted by the signals.

Another school says that calling signals all the time is just useless clutter of the "road" channel. There's an interesting parallel between this line of thinking and the FAA rules for calling movements near uncontrolled airports. Sit near a small airport sometime and listen to the CTAF or UNICOM frequency. You'll hear planes calling just about every movement they make so that other planes in the area know what might be happening near them.

I still occasionally hear signals called on CSX in central Indiana. It may be an acknowledgement that a signal changed in front of the train (I have heard trains call "clear" when a red signal changes to green in front of them). Or, it may be old habits.

 

[SQP]

By RULE, signals MUST be called out for trains preparing to SLOW or stop. Clear or diverging signals need not be. This is for all Class 1 trackage.

 

[radio]

For whatever reason why the signals are no longer called just takes the rail fanner's knowledge that a train is coming instead of sitting there for nothing. I guess we are going to have to know where the detectors are so we can hear that.

Like I said, living here in Colorado, UP and BNSF never did call signals, but I know where the detectors are that told me a train was coming. And I do hear the UP and BNSF dispatchers issuing track warrants.

 

[AK9R]

By RULE, signals MUST be called out for trains preparing to SLOW or stop. Clear or diverging signals need not be. This is for all Class 1 trackage.

Is that an FRA rule or a railroad rule?

I guess we are going to have to know where the detectors are so we can hear that.

That, and program the EOT frequency into your scanner. The EOTs are fairly low power, so if you hear one barking, there's a train close.

 

[SQP]

Is that an FRA rule or a railroad rule?

Railroad.

 

[cbehr91]

Unless there was a change in the rules on CSX and NS they're still required to call signals over the radio (which also applies to Amtrak trains operating on trackage governed by CSX and NS rules). But myself, like others, have noticed a sharp reduction in calling signals over the radio over the past several years, or the person in the cab calling signals will key the radio but not speak into it, so the listener just hears background noise.

I'm honestly not sure if there is any rule on BNSF, but UP used to have to call anything less than clear. CN, at least the last time I was on a CN line, will call the distance signals to interlockings as well as anything less than clear.

 

[burner50]

Is that an FRA rule or a railroad rule?



That, and program the EOT frequency into your scanner. The EOTs are fairly low power, so if you hear one barking, there's a train close.

Calling signals out over the radio has always been a railroad rule. It's partially a benefit for crews around a train to know if someone is stopping, running on signals, etc... But it's also an easy way for managers to ding a crew for something little without even leaving the office.

Here is Union Pacific's current rule (1.47.C.2):

2. Radio Transmission Except when switching a crew member must transmit the engine number, direction, location and signal name (include track number in multiple main track CTC territory) when the head end of the train:

A. Passes a signal that requires: Being prepared to Stop at the next signal. Being prepared to pass next signal at Restricted Speed.
or
Restricted speed.

B. Stops for a signal that requires stopping. Note: instructions may be issued to identify locations where this radio transmission is not required.

 

[radio]

Thanks burner 50. The UP and BNSF shared tracks run through El Paso County Colorado and for the 9 years I have lived here never heard either calling any signal. All I hear are the detectors, switching activities and the UP and BNSF dispatchers talking to the train crews.

When I was living back east in the DC area, CSX and Norfolk Southern always called signals wherever they were, in DC, MD, PA, VA or WV.

 

[burner50]

Thanks burner 50. The UP and BNSF shared tracks run through El Paso County Colorado and for the 9 years I have lived here never heard either calling any signal. All I hear are the detectors, switching activities and the UP and BNSF dispatchers talking to the train crews.

When I was living back east in the DC area, CSX and Norfolk Southern always called signals wherever they were, in DC, MD, PA, VA or WV.

It may be that they're not running on signals that require them to call them out over the radio.

 

[wa8pyr]

Unless there was a change in the rules on CSX and NS they're still required to call signals over the radio (which also applies to Amtrak trains operating on trackage governed by CSX and NS rules). But myself, like others, have noticed a sharp reduction in calling signals over the radio over the past several years, or the person in the cab calling signals will key the radio but not speak into it, so the listener just hears background noise.

I've noticed a similar decline in signal-calling, and from what I've been told it's due to trains now being equipped with PTC.

Personally I hold with the idea that calling signals is a good idea for situational awareness, and I think stopping the practice just because of PTC is a bad idea; what do you do when PTC has problems (which happens around here fairly often)?

 

[INDY72]

I've noticed a similar decline in signal-calling, and from what I've been told it's due to trains now being equipped with PTC.

Personally I hold with the idea that calling signals is a good idea for situational awareness, and I think stopping the practice just because of PTC is a bad idea; what do you do when PTC has problems (which happens around here fairly often).

Exactly. On CSX, radio traffic over all has decreased in areas where there is full PTC. But in areas where the PTC is not completely covering every inch of rail, they still do a lot of talking. For example here in Indy, outside the "inner loop" so to speak, there really is not much radio traffic other than the yards, and the signal maintainers. But once inside "the loop" where there are multiple manually controlled switches, and interaction with the shortlines that don't have full PTC, there is a good bit of traffic still. But again, I rarely hear signals called unless there is a safety issue such as mentioned previously. Even the Amtrak runs don't call signals. CSX dispatchers will say that signal so and so is clear if they have multiple trains in que for multiple moves etc... Though in my mind with the consists now getting longer and longer, with multiple DPU's in use, it would be better to calling out things as these trains could easily be the cause of a major incident if something was to go really wrong. Seriously, when you have a long enough and heavy enough train to need multiple locos at front, rear, AND a middle DPU or two?

 

[radio]

Since locomotives have video cameras, it should be mandatory to hear the engineer and/or conductor call every signal to prove that a signal was seen, in case of an accident or any other incident. I presume that this new electronic equipment records a signal status in these new black boxes. Just because the box recorded does not prove the engineer and/or conductor in that cab saw it unless there is a voice on that recording.

 

[wa8pyr]

Since locomotives have video cameras, it should be mandatory to hear the engineer and/or conductor call every signal to prove that a signal was seen, in case of an accident or any other incident. I presume that this new electronic equipment records a signal status in these new black boxes. Just because the box recorded does not prove the engineer and/or conductor in that cab saw it unless there is a voice on that recording.

That's one of the presumed advantages of PTC; if a train passes a restricting signal at a speed exceeding that allowed by the rules, PTC will slow it down or stop it as required. The display in the cab does show switch and signal status (although not track occupancy if I recall correctly), and I think that's where the tech heads are getting the idea they can do away with calling signals. IMHO, too much reliance on technology will get them in trouble one day.....

 

[radio]

Wa8pyr, I know nothing about the PTC systems yet. Exactly. You mentioned track occupancy. If they do not detect any trains in the area that the crew should know about, that is not a good thing at all. If another train is in emergency for whatever reason and the train crew is walking the train or other emergency crews and equipment is on the track, every train in the vicinity needs to know so they act accordingly. After all, if train in motion and suddenly sees another train stopped on the other track or God forbid ahead on the same track or emergency crews/equipment is present, we all know that train cannot get stopped in time.

I love electronics but nothing can totally replace the eyes, ears and voice of a crew and the train radio.

 

[SQP]

After you review post #6, please note that PTC DOES NOT supersede the requirement on Class 1 trackage.

 

[wa8pyr]

Wa8pyr, I know nothing about the PTC systems yet. Exactly. You mentioned track occupancy. If they do not detect any trains in the area that the crew should know about, that is not a good thing at all. If another train is in emergency for whatever reason and the train crew is walking the train or other emergency crews and equipment is on the track, every train in the vicinity needs to know so they act accordingly. After all, if train in motion and suddenly sees another train stopped on the other track or God forbid ahead on the same track or emergency crews/equipment is present, we all know that train cannot get stopped in time.

As I noted earlier, the PTC display does show switch and signal status (for example, various conditions put up what they call a "red fence", literally a red bar across the track on the display) but not track occupancy; unfavorable track occupancy would be reflected in the signal indication. Another advantage of PTC is that it displays the status of intermediate signals as well as home signals at interlocking plants. In any case, PTC will reduce speed or stop a train if the crew doesn't react to a less than favorable situation.

After you review post #6, please note that PTC DOES NOT supersede the requirement on Class 1 trackage.

Where in the CFR or FRA regulations is it required for ALL class 1 trackage? One of the selling points of PTC was that it would, in theory, eliminate the need for that sort of thing, and it's entirely possible that such a mandate could have been modified given the existence of PTC.

I know it's mandated by the rules of each railroad, but those can be eliminated or modified by rulebook change or bulletin order.

Personally I like that signals are called and as I noted earlier, feel it's silly to eliminate the practice simply because PTC is in place.