Army Mars intrusion

[gcgrotz]

This is a copy of an e-mail I just sent to the ARRL regulatory dept. I am curious to see if I get a reply.

"Dan:

As I write, I am listening to a MARS net on 6.999.00 LSB discussing hurricane preparations. This is at 01:00 to 01:25 (right now) on Sept 6, 2008, They just closed down after reading a long message from the HQ station AAA9A/A and then AAA9EC closed the net. I don't think this is right for them to operate 1KHz from the bottom of the 40 meter band, surely they have other frequencies? Maybe it is because WYFR is broadcasting on 6.985!

I would like the ARRL to lodge an official complaint with the Director of Army MARS.

Thanks and 73,
George"

 

[Hooligan]

This is a copy of an e-mail I just sent to the ARRL regulatory dept. I am curious to see if I get a reply.

"Dan:

As I write, I am listening to a MARS net on 6.999.00 LSB discussing hurricane preparations. This is at 01:00 to 01:25 (right now) on Sept 6, 2008, They just closed down after reading a long message from the HQ station AAA9A/A and then AAA9EC closed the net. I don't think this is right for them to operate 1KHz from the bottom of the 40 meter band, surely they have other frequencies? Maybe it is because WYFR is broadcasting on 6.985!

I would like the ARRL to lodge an official complaint with the Director of Army MARS.

Thanks and 73,
George"

I believe you're a "busybody" & I think/hope the ARRL will ignore your complaint.

It seems completely, utterly without any merit since you're not claiming or aware of any interference the EMERGENCY-PREPAREDNESS RELATED comms caused, and their operating on what I assume to be an allocated channel for them is not in any form an "intrusion" into your dear 40 meters.


Very sincerely,

Hooligan

 

[KE0SKN]

I help in the army mars group. We have a assigned frequencies to use. these are military frequencies and regular hams can not use. Don't worry about them they know what there doing. Just have fun listing to them.

 

[chrismol1]

who are these WHACKERS????
what gives them the right to ***** over something like that? dont they know how stupid it sounds?
I hope that hell will get a fine for false complaint and wasting time
not just him but people all over are like this where stupid things get them going, I wish there was a name for it

 

[rdale]

Chris - it appears only one person has complained... Who is "they"?

 

[zz0468]

6.999 MHz LSB? That would put them completely OUTSIDE the amateur band. I don't see a problem here.

 

[barefootdipole]

i have to agree with the complaint...thanks for sending it ! tho i did not hear the operation myself. all stations must be aware of the full envelope of their transmission bandwidth...and stay within their alloted bands. you cannot operate ssb on 6.999 without splattering the top two to three kilocycles of the 40m cw band---the prime dx cw frequencies in our allocation. you shouldn't operate ssb that close to band edges. in the same light, there are a group of hams that operate on 3.999 regularly---similarily oblivious to the fact that a major part of their signal is outside the ham band, in violation of FCC regulations. it's easy to keep a buffer between services and to co-exist. no reason not to.....and plenty of reasons to do it !

thanks gcgrotz...

Barefootdipole

 

[N_Jay]

i have to agree with the complaint...thanks for sending it ! tho i did not hear the operation myself. all stations must be aware of the full envelope of their transmission bandwidth...and stay within their alloted bands. you cannot operate ssb on 6.999 without splattering the top two to three kilocycles of the 40m cw band---the prime dx cw frequencies in our allocation. you shouldn't operate ssb that close to band edges. in the same light, there are a group of hams that operate on 3.999 regularly---similarily oblivious to the fact that a major part of their signal is outside the ham band, in violation of FCC regulations. it's easy to keep a buffer between services and to co-exist. no reason not to.....and plenty of reasons to do it !

thanks gcgrotz...

Barefootdipole

What is the envelope of a LSB voice signal?

Seems carrier would be down 40 dB or so and the upper sideband would be down 60 dB or so.

At 1 kHz above carrier, I would think you would be fine (assuming you have decent equipment)

Am I misunderstanding something?

 

[zz0468]

i have to agree with the complaint...thanks for sending it ! tho i did not hear the operation myself. all stations must be aware of the full envelope of their transmission bandwidth...and stay within their alloted bands. you cannot operate ssb on 6.999 without splattering the top two to three kilocycles of the 40m cw band---the prime dx cw frequencies in our allocation. you shouldn't operate ssb that close to band edges. in the same light, there are a group of hams that operate on 3.999 regularly---similarily oblivious to the fact that a major part of their signal is outside the ham band, in violation of FCC regulations. it's easy to keep a buffer between services and to co-exist. no reason not to.....and plenty of reasons to do it !

thanks gcgrotz...

Barefootdipole

Both the operation at 3999 and at 6999 are legal, and non-intrusive. It's LOWER sideband, so the energy is almost completely contained in the spectrum BELOW the suppressed carrier frequency.

 

[elk2370bruce]

The MARS ops are operating on frequencies and modes federally assigned to them and are perfectly legal. What sophisticated, calibrated equipment are you using to ID the frequency? The SSB signal envelope you describe would be contained BELOW this operating frequency. Before you start lodging formal complaints and and filing charges, you should first know what you are talking about. Start with the ARRL Handbook. I would suggest doing some intensive homework before again assuming the self-appointed frequency police role and gaining a whistle blower rep with them. You will get a word processing response from the FCC or ARRL Spectrum people acknowledging the complaint and promising to give it all the attention it deserves (In this case, NOTHING). Are you an OO in training or just blowing smoke? Stick to enjoying the amateur radio privileges you have been licensed for.

 

[kb2vxa]

I have heard nets operating on the same carrier frequency with one being LSB and the other USB without any interference whatsoever so what is your problem? Unfortunately I see it as ignorance but education is the cure, I hope we may be of some help.

Just a bit of sarcastic wit here, please don't take the card personally.

 

[elk2370bruce]

We can always create a new nom de plum. IDHACBWTAK. (I don't have a clue but wish to appear knowledgeble). All licenses give us the right to practice our profession or hobby but perfection must be self-professed and rarely achieved. Warren is (gasp, gulp, cough, gag) correct. Our sarcasm really IS intentional.

 

[gcgrotz]

Good Golly! ok, barefootdipole got it right. I am not blowing smoke. I did get a polite response from the ARRL saying they would look into it. I looked at the reporting of intruders procedures and it said to inform the legal and regulatory folks, which I did. This was not an OO problem because it was not a Ham operating on a Ham frequency. I suppose everyone that criticized me would also not report an abandoned vehicle in your driveway either.

I was using an Icom 746pro with a 2.4 KHz filter and yes it was LSB and yes I could still hear it on 7201 KHz which is inside the Ham bands. I also realize that while tuned to 7201 the passband of my rx will still allow a 2.5KHz wide signal with a (suppressed) carrier freq of 6999KHz to be heard. You try operating on 3999 for a while and see if you don't get noticed. Those of you that actually know enough to pass a test and get a license, that is.

I was hoping for a civilized response from someone that maybe knew something about MARS operating.

 

[gcgrotz]

I have heard nets operating on the same carrier frequency with one being LSB and the other USB without any interference whatsoever so what is your problem? Unfortunately I see it as ignorance but education is the cure, I hope we may be of some help.

Just a bit of sarcastic wit here, please don't take the card personally.

VOA used to do that all the time for overseas feeds before they had satellite capability. My problem is that if I had being trying to work a weak DX station on 7101 CW, I would have had a hard time.

 

[jhooten]

I was using an Icom 746pro with a 2.4 KHz filter and yes it was LSB and yes I could still hear it on 7201 KHz which is inside the Ham bands. I also realize that while tuned to 7201 the passband of my rx will still allow a 2.5KHz wide signal with a (suppressed) carrier freq of 6999KHz to be heard. You try operating on 3999 for a while and see if you don't get noticed. Those of you that actually know enough to pass a test and get a license, that is.

I was hoping for a civilized response from someone that maybe knew something about MARS operating.

If the pass band of your receiver tuned to 7201 kHz will allow you to hear a LSB signal with a widow frequency of 6999 kHz your radio has a serious problem. That would make your receive pass band over 202 kilohertz wide. What did you do pull all the filters out of it?

The normal wide audio band width is 300-3000 Hz or.3-3 kHz. 6999 -3 = 6996, 6999 - .3 = 6998.7 So the signal of a properly operated transmitter in the LSB mode with a window frequency of 6999 kHz will be between 6996 and 6998.7 kHz. Totally out side of the 40 meter ham band. MARS prefers to limit the upper audio frequency to 2700 and the lower to 500 hertz which would put the upper edge at 6998.5, BTW

MARS is anal about frequency tolerance and having the transmitted signal contained within the assigned channel. MARS frequencies are assigned as a center of intelligence/allowed bandwidth channel not as a discrete "window" or "dial" frequency.

I "retired" from Army MARS earlier this year after having been a member for 20 years. Does that qualify?

 

[zz0468]

Assume the OP listed made a typo by first stating 7201, and then again in the next post stating 7101, and assume he REALLY meant 7001, which is where the DX window REALLY is. Even if the frequency he desired to listen to is at 7001, the MARS stations are not responsible if an amateur selects the wrong filter, the wrong sideband, or otherwise operates the receiver in a manner that causes it to respond to out of band signals.

Most modern amateur grade receivers and transceivers have filters available that would have made this a non-issue. In a case where the transmitted energy is entirely where it's supposed to be, it becomes the receiving stations responsibility to fix any interference.

I was hoping for a civilized response from someone that maybe knew something about MARS operating.

I hope you're not complaining about the civility of our responses. ALL the posts in this thread have been civil. We just happen to believe you're wrong.

 

[gcgrotz]

Pardon the error of my ways. Yes, I meant 7001KHz. I also realize that if I really was trying to work some rare DX there, I would have switched in the 250 Hz CW filter and the MARS net would have disappeared. I was primarily objecting to the choice of frequency so close to a ham band. Had the situation been reversed, the hams involved would likely receive one of Warren's lovely pink notices.

As for "civil" responses, please refer to chrismoll and elk2370bruce whose responses never fail to amuse but also fail to qualify as civil.

 

[kb2vxa]

How much do you beat a dead horse? It depends on whether you want to kill flies or make dog food.

"I suppose everyone that criticized me would also not report an abandoned vehicle in your driveway either."

That depends on where you live, sometimes they'll tow it and sometimes they'll ignore you. The latter was the case where I used to live so we would torch them and they'd be gone as soon as the fire truck got out of the way. Nobody can ignore fire.

"Had the situation been reversed, the hams involved would likely receive one of Warren's lovely pink notices."

Nope, you didn't read the notice. Besides, OO cards are white and we had a way of dealing with the picayune before we discovered that pink OOO card. Our way involved a few brown smudges and mailing them back in sealed envelopes.

As far as sarcasm goes you don't know me when I go off my meds; you can thank your lucky stars for Blantonol the wonder drug.

 

[elk2370bruce]

Pardon the error of my ways. Yes, I meant 7001KHz. I also realize that if I really was trying to work some rare DX there, I would have switched in the 250 Hz CW filter and the MARS net would have disappeared. I was primarily objecting to the choice of frequency so close to a ham band. Had the situation been reversed, the hams involved would likely receive one of Warren's lovely pink notices.

As for "civil" responses, please refer to chrismoll and elk2370bruce whose responses never fail to amuse but also fail to qualify as civil.

My comments are made to be sarcastic, sardonic and amusing - to fit the situation. Civility is reserved for those who are deserving of it. In this case of the sliding frequency (7201, 7101, 7001 and still counting,) plus the close frequency accountability demanded by MARS stations, your letter is correct - "it will be given all of the attention it truly deserves." - Hell, neither ARRL or FCC have ever even slowed down the 'litter box" use of 14.275 and the lower life(?)forms that inhabit it even after all this time. This one is not even worthy of further discussion or intervention by Uncle Sugar or Auntie ARRL.

 

[ka3jjz]

Agreed. This is just beating yet another dead horse...accordingly this thread is closed. Feel free to start a new one if needed....73 Mike