Brevard County in building radio checks by Fire Marshall

[Gadgetmann]

I was contacted by our HOA that the Brevard Co Fire Marshall will be checking inside every unit in our building for portable radio coverage. She also said if there is not sufficient coverage that we will have to pay for a BDA? Is there an ordinance allowing the County to require coverage in existing buildings and force them to buy BDA's?

 

[jeff]

Florida adopted NFPA codes 2016 edition which requires BDAs be installed where there are communication dead zones. You're supposed to be in compliance by 2022 but you can get extensions until 2025.

 

[Gadgetmann]

Who determines what minimum radio signal strength level is required and what is that level? Do they just do a walk through with portables and check RSSI or do they use a service monitor?

 

[zerg901]

Do they test at floor level?

 

[Bote]

If they were smart, they'd use simplex for fireground communications.

 

[kd4efm]

Who determines what minimum radio signal strength level is required and what is that level? Do they just do a walk through with portables and check RSSI or do they use a service monitor?

We (certain radio shops) have gear the measures the RSSI and a few other metered items and walk the property to identify the signal quality.
This data is then fed to a computer and surveyed as to a pass fail status and the plot is then turned back to the surveying company, and that is then turned over to the property owner.

The property owner is responsible for the whole process. There are no grants or "FREEBIES" in this.

As Jeff said, the code is being implemented, state wide by the local AHJ's, and there are certain requirements to what does and does not need a BDA based on building occupancy and size.

See the following file from 2019

http://www.bomaflorida.org/resources/Documents/Documents/One-Pager%20FL%20BDA%202019%20-%20Draft%2009-05-19dk.pdf

December 31, 2019 - Any existing building that is OVER 75’ IN HEIGHT (calculated by measuring from the ground floor to the floor of your highest occupied floor) that is not currently in compliance with the requirements must apply by this date for an appropriate local permit for the required installation and must demonstrate that the building will become compliant by 2022. Please note that residential buildings are on different timeframe compliance; they are required to apply for a permit by 12.31.22 and to comply by 01.01.25.

January 1, 2022 - Existing high-rise buildings are required to comply with minimum radio strength for fire department communications and two-way radio system enhancement communications.

 

[KevinC]

A problem with a lot of this type of testing is it doesn't account for any uplink testing (not referring to @kd4efm specifically).

I've personally encountered way too many "the RSSI is good" results, but you still get bonked when trying to keyup because the uplink is crap.

Or even better the uplink gain on the BDA is 30 dB with a 16 element yagi aimed at the site 2 miles away.

 

[Bote]

I've heard on both Fort Lauderdale and Broward County public safety trunked systems teams doing walk-through test counts in buildings, including elevators and stairwells to test precisely that. 1-10 counts in each spot with their partner confirming reception. So at least some radio shops do that.

My gripe is that they were picking whatever random fireground talkgroup to do it, which is annoying to the scanner hobbyist LOL.

 

[srich10]

CII has in the past done very methodical building grid count tests on the Brevard EDACS TRS to check on building coverage. Hear them routinely in the past and they’re actually keying up portables in the test locations reporting values for grid zones and squares

 

[IAmSixNine]

Hey lets go cheap on building out the system and make the building owners fill in the coverage gaps.

 

[Bote]

Hey lets go cheap on building out the system and make the building owners fill in the coverage gaps.

Agree with the sentiment, which is why smart departments go with simplex fireground communications with the incident commander keeping a radio on the repeater/trunked system to talk back to dispatch. Only in rare circumstances are they not able to cover the entire fire scene a few hundred feet to the command buggy so only those few facilities would need BDAs.

 

[jeff]

As Bote said and the NFPA recommends that fireground comms be simplex analog. They don't do that in FLA. Another issue is with law enforcement, they don't have folks to monitor simplex.

 

[W7FDX]

I've heard on both Fort Lauderdale and Broward County public safety trunked systems teams doing walk-through test counts in buildings, including elevators and stairwells to test precisely that. 1-10 counts in each spot with their partner confirming reception. So at least some radio shops do that.

My gripe is that they were picking whatever random fireground talkgroup to do it, which is annoying to the scanner hobbyist LOL.

Exactly! I've never heard of a TRS that doesn't have at least one radio maintenance TG. Alot of them have at least 2 one clear and one encrypted. Our new state TRS that is almost done with build out and testing has at least 10 or 12 but they are all encrypted for whatever reason.

 

[IAmSixNine]

As Bote said and the NFPA recommends that fireground comms be simplex analog. They don't do that in FLA. Another issue is with law enforcement, they don't have folks to monitor simplex.

Yet another reason to build out the system properly with in building coverage. But wait, heres the master plan, lets take out a tower or two so we can now afford encryption. Yeah that will keep the officers safe. They may or may not hit the repeater but by golly if they do they are protected from bad guys because E is enabled.
There is a 4 site, 4 county ( 1 site in each county ) designed for regional comms, mobiles mainly for agencies to communicate on.
Well not long ago the toll authority put its officers on it because the toll roads they patrol cover all the counties. But yet they complain about radios not working. Huh go figure. Your on a system that was designed for mobiles and mainly interop between agencies and NOT designed for full area coverage in the counties they are located in. There are lots of gaps in it but that is how it was designed.

 

[W7FDX]

Agree with the sentiment, which is why smart departments go with simplex fireground communications with the incident commander keeping a radio on the repeater/trunked system to talk back to dispatch. Only in rare circumstances are they not able to cover the entire fire scene a few hundred feet to the command buggy so only those few facilities would need BDAs.

My county went from a VHF Low analog system to a VHF High P25 P2 system a few years ago and now they have all fireground comms on the TRS and they wonder why they have issues with in building coverage especially in hotels and the hospitals. (Our portables lose service about 10-12 feet inside the ER doors.) I am also a firm believer in simplex analog comms for fireground operations.

 

[W7FDX]

Yet another reason to build out the system properly with in building coverage. But wait, heres the master plan, lets take out a tower or two so we can now afford encryption. Yeah that will keep the officers safe. They may or may not hit the repeater but by golly if they do they are protected from bad guys because E is enabled.
There is a 4 site, 4 county ( 1 site in each county ) designed for regional comms, mobiles mainly for agencies to communicate on.
Well not long ago the toll authority put its officers on it because the toll roads they patrol cover all the counties. But yet they complain about radios not working. Huh go figure. Your on a system that was designed for mobiles and mainly interop between agencies and NOT designed for full area coverage in the counties they are located in. There are lots of gaps in it but that is how it was designed.

Same with alot of the state TRS are mainly designed for mobile coverage in most areas and then they complain that their portables don't work half the time.

 

[gtaman]

We run trunked firegrounds. We go to simplex only in dense warehouses. Ohio MARCS has pretty damn good coverage including the city simulcast.

 

[N4DES]

Who determines what minimum radio signal strength level is required and what is that level? Do they just do a walk through with portables and check RSSI or do they use a service monitor?

It is currently -95dBm for 90% of the occupied space and 99% for critical areas. That is soon to be changing in 1221 to a DAQ test and what the local licensee sees fit as the minimum signal level. My county is going back to our original -102dBm that we have had in place since 2002 that served us well with our analog SmartZone system and in doing this we hope to be reducing the infux of systems that are just not needed.

Personally I have a conversion chart that follows the RSSI to dBm and I use a radio with all of the built-in losses that the majority of our LE users use with is the PSM with shoulder mounted 1/4 wave when I commission a BDA both uplink and downlink with a technician at the multi-coupler with a spectrum analyzer.

 

[N4DES]

Or even better the uplink gain on the BDA is 30 dB with a 16 element yagi aimed at the site 2 miles away.

Installations like that get an immediate 20db attenuator on the donor antenna lead-in without hesitation.

 

[zapman987]

How the hell did this pass a legal challenge (or has there just not been one yet)? Anything existing should be grandfathered in same as building codes go, until a change permit is needed.