Can't hear both sides of frequency

[ASTRO_Man]

Hello,

I currently have a Radio Shack Pro-528 scanner and listen to KHPN tower and other approach frequencies to NYC. I live very close to KHPN and the sound is crystal clear. But, when I listen, I can only hear the pilots talk, not the controllers. Why?

P.S. I am getting a new digital trunking scanner soon, would this solve the problem?

Thanks,

Will

 

[n5ims]

The ground based transmissions are designed to communicate with those in flight, so the system is optimized for that function. This would prevent other ground stations from hearing them unless they are very close to their transmitter location. You can hear the pilots since they are in flight and are basically using an antenna that is several thousand feet in the air.

The only thing that would help your situation is to get your antenna up as high as possible (using very low loss coax). Well, you could also move closer to the transmitter, but that's probably not an option.

 

[ScanWI]

This is very true I can hear pilots all day long in my car but until I'm at the airport I can't hear the ATC.

 

[CalebATC]

Welcome to Radio Reference, and the great hobby of aircraft communications!

If you ever though Public Safety was hard to get..... think again!

I think we can all agree that aviation is the hardest thing to get, in basic terms.

First of all, I am assuming you are using the default antenna with your scanner, correct? If so, this will be the first thing you need to fix. Aviation radios run on very low power, so unless they are close, you won't hear anything. Same goes for ATC, they only put out roughly 10-55 watts of power, so they are quite a trick to getting.

If you don't have a outdoor antenna, I would recommend the ST-2. It is a very great antenna for the money, and it does quite well on the air band for it's price. It comes with all you need to get it going, 50' of RG-6, and a BNC connector. It is also good for other types of scanning if you do Public Safety or HAM bands.

At airports, they don't really have very high towers at all, around 50' or so. The reason for that is because the aircraft are high enough that their is no obstacles to get in the way, unlike Public Safety, etc. Since the such low wattage, and low height, the air band ATC side is very hard to relieve on the ground.

So yes, it isn't much of a thing of how close, just you need a good antenna! I can sit in my house and listen to the FD/PD, but can't think about picking up the AWOS, although the airport is 7 miles away. So my recommendation is that you get a outdoor antenna. Mount that sucker as high as you can. The higher, the better. You can never have to high of an antenna If you are very serious about it, you will want to get one of the DPD Productions Log Periodics, and you will really be going then. But, living 20 miles away from the airport, you should be fine with a ST-2.

Aviation is strongly simplex. There are no repeaters that you input in, and output in. Everything is on AM, which makes DX'ing fun on the air band during ducting, I have logged planes in Savannah Georgia, about 150+ miles away on ACARS, and ATIS's 100 miles away. So their is no rif-raf about trunking, CTCSS's, repeaters and all of that crap! Just a frequency and your'e in business. Therefore, the new scanner won't help.

Also, I am not sure what you are using for frequencies, but here is some to get you started (Try AirNav ):
COMMUNICATIONS - CTAF - 118.575 UNICOM - 122.95 ATIS - 133.8 REMARKS:
C914-948-0130. Dep. ASOS - REMARKS: C914-288-0216. NEW YORK APP - (R) (E) 120.8
124.65 126.4 257.65 REMARKS: (126.4 Opr 1200-0400Z++.) (120.8 Opr
0400-1200Z++.)(TRSA) TWR - Opr 1100-0400Z++. (E) 118.575 381.2 GND - 121.825
284.65 NEW YORK DEP - (R) (E) 120.55 257.65 CLNC DEL - 127.25

If you have any questions, ask!

 

[gewecke]

Hello,

I currently have a Radio Shack Pro-528 scanner and listen to KHPN tower and other approach frequencies to NYC. I live very close to KHPN and the sound is crystal clear. But, when I listen, I can only hear the pilots talk, not the controllers. Why?

P.S. I am getting a new digital trunking scanner soon, would this solve the problem?

Thanks,

Will

Antennas at the control tower are most likely mounted horizontal so that signals are focused towards app/departure craft which explains largely why you may not hear the tower. The same goes for ATIS antennas. I can't hear mine more than a few miles away,until I'm right on top of them. No pun intended! :lol:
n9zas

 

[CalebATC]

Antennas at the control tower are most likely mounted horizontal so that signals are focused towards app/departure craft which explains largely why you may not hear the tower. The same goes for ATIS antennas. I can't hear mine more than a few miles away,until I'm right on top of them. No pun intended! :lol:
n9zas

All of the ATC antennas are vertically polorized. As seen here: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2087/2764502694_df45bbc5f8.jpg

At an airport in Florida, I think I remember seeing a discone type ATIS antenna, but with one horizontal though. I'll have to look next time.

But pretty much, it's just because of the very lower power they use, and they don't put up the towers very high at all, they really can't, planes would be hitting them!

 

[gewecke]

All of the ATC antennas are vertically polorized. As seen here: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2087/2764502694_df45bbc5f8.jpg

At an airport in Florida, I think I remember seeing a discone type ATIS antenna, but with one horizontal though. I'll have to look next time.

But pretty much, it's just because of the very lower power they use, and they don't put up the towers very high at all, they really can't, planes would be hitting them!

I wish I could hang around a major airport with a bag full of radios for kicks!
The different antenna configurations alone would be cool,not to mention all the various aircraft in and out. It's strange that most of our local terminal has several horiz. yagi antennas as well as a few verticals.
73's.
n9zas

 

[SCPD]

What is really weird, is that I can sometimes hear the L.A. ATC ground control directing planes in and out of LAX, Lindburgh Field, etc., on 119.95 and 132.85. I'll hear the ground controller coming in on a very strong signal and I will, of course, hear the plane responding. What's really strange is that sometimes I detect a "duplex" effect, meaning I'll hear the ground controller on 119.95 and the pilot's response on 132.85.

I'm simply using a PRO-97 handheld with the stock rubber duck.

I thought the L.A. ATC was down around San Diego, so I don't know why I hear the ground controllers, but I do. And not all the time. But maybe about half the time I scan I'll hear ground control. I don't know if this is a strange atmospheric phenomenon or what.

But you're correct about local ariports. I'm about 10 miles away from Fullerton Airport and about 14 miles away from John Wayne Airport-Santa Ana, and I never hear the towers, just the aircraft.

Dave
KA6TJF

 

[CalebATC]

Yes, sometimes one controller may be controlling 3 frequencies late at night, you may be hearing all these calls, but they are one 3 different frequencies. This does make for step-overs when it happens though. Especially in Florida, where the F-16's and F-5's used UHF ARTCC and Miami Approach UHF, Miami would have to ask them to repeat it a few times, since they were being stepped on on the VHF side.

Down here in Georgia, Atlanta Approach on 128.0 is broadcasted on top of a mountain about 20 nm's away. Used to when I lived in Florida, I would hear the RSW Tower better than RSW approach. One of my friends that is a controller there told me they used different antennas.

95% of the time, all of the local and terminal control is broadcasted at the airport (But, exclusions like 128.0 at KATL,) and the ARTCC's are mostly boradcasted at airports too, usually on the same site as the VOR(TAC/DME).

And for Davidhcrocker, most ground controls are on the same frequencies, the most common being 121.9, 121.8 and 121.7, the reason they use the same frequency is because the ground doesn't go far at all, usually they don't put them closer than 50~ miles of each other. Sometimes they will have 4+ frequencies at a larage airport like KATL.

 

[rmiller818]

What is really weird, is that I can sometimes hear the L.A. ATC ground control directing planes in and out of LAX, Lindburgh Field, etc., on 119.95 and 132.85. I'll hear the ground controller coming in on a very strong signal and I will, of course, hear the plane responding. What's really strange is that sometimes I detect a "duplex" effect, meaning I'll hear the ground controller on 119.95 and the pilot's response on 132.85.

I'm simply using a PRO-97 handheld with the stock rubber duck.

I thought the L.A. ATC was down around San Diego, so I don't know why I hear the ground controllers, but I do. And not all the time. But maybe about half the time I scan I'll hear ground control. I don't know if this is a strange atmospheric phenomenon or what.

But you're correct about local ariports. I'm about 10 miles away from Fullerton Airport and about 14 miles away from John Wayne Airport-Santa Ana, and I never hear the towers, just the aircraft.

Dave
KA6TJF

I think some terms are getting confused here. The Ground controller sits in the tower next to the local controller and ONLY controls aircraft movements on the ground. If you are hearing a controller controlling aircraft in-flight in and out of an airport it is probably an approach or departure controller. The reason you may be able to hear the controller is many times approach/departure frequencies originate from a remote site located off the airport to better facilitate communications with aircraft. And yes, SOCAL approach is located in San Diego so there would need to be several RCAG sites located around the socal area to adequately cover the area. The reason why you may hear the controller on one frequency and the aircraft response on a different one is during slower times sectors will be combined so you have one controller working several sectors and thus several frequencies while the aircraft is just on one of those frequencies.

 

[SCPD]

OK, sorry for getting my terminology wrong. So what, again, do you call the guys working SOCAL Approach/Departure? What does RCAG mean? And how can I find if I have an RCAG site near to where I live?

Dave
KA6TJF

 

[CalebATC]

OK, sorry for getting my terminology wrong. So what, again, do you call the guys working SOCAL Approach/Departure? What does RCAG mean? And how can I find if I have an RCAG site near to where I live?

Dave
KA6TJF

They guys working SOCAL Approach/Departure are reffered to as TRACON, or TERMINAL controllers, along with APP and DEP.

RCAG- Remote Control Air To Ground, where the transmitter is located at (99% Of the times next to a VOR(TAC/DME), these mostly are major ones, such as ATL, MIA, TPA, SRQ, RSW etc.

Look on a sectional map ( SkyVector: Flight Planning / Aeronautical Charts ) to find the nearest RCAG, or to find the nearest VORTAC. Most of the VORTAC's will be at a busier airport. Such as a class CHARLIE, and BRAVO.

 

[JoeyC]

119.95 & 132.85 are LA ARTCC (ZLA) freqs. They may be worked by the same controller during slower times which would result in controller voice simulcast over both freqs when the plane can only be heard on one.
SOCAL TRACON, located at the SW corner of Interstate 15 and Miramar Rd in San Diego handles Class B airspace from the Mexican border to about Burbank and eastward to just west of Palm Springs area I believe. I've taken a tour of the facilty and it is an awesome experience to see the enormity of responsibility in just a couple of darkened rooms.

 

[SCPD]

They guys working SOCAL Approach/Departure are reffered to as TRACON, or TERMINAL controllers, along with APP and DEP.

RCAG- Remote Control Air To Ground, where the transmitter is located at (99% Of the times next to a VOR(TAC/DME), these mostly are major ones, such as ATL, MIA, TPA, SRQ, RSW etc.

Look on a sectional map ( SkyVector: Flight Planning / Aeronautical Charts ) to find the nearest RCAG, or to find the nearest VORTAC. Most of the VORTAC's will be at a busier airport. Such as a class CHARLIE, and BRAVO.

Thanks. I'm on the Fullerton (KFUL) page of AirNav and it looks like the closest VOR/TAC to me is Seal Beach, while the closest VOR/DME is El Toro. So if I'm reading you correctly RCAG transmitters are located near these two sites. This would explain why SOCAL Approach/Departure comes in strong and clear on my handheld, even though the TRACON is down in San Diego. Correct?

Dave
KA6TJF

 

[CalebATC]

Thanks. I'm on the Fullerton (KFUL) page of AirNav and it looks like the closest VOR/TAC to me is Seal Beach, while the closest VOR/DME is El Toro. So if I'm reading you correctly RCAG transmitters are located near these two sites. This would explain why SOCAL Approach/Departure comes in strong and clear on my handheld, even though the TRACON is down in San Diego. Correct?

Dave
KA6TJF

Since it will be quite a distance for the aircraft coming in on the north to communicate with the TRACON, they put a transmitter north of the TRACON. SOCAL is one of the few airports where the TRACON is at a different place besides the ATC Tower. Also, the TRACON may be in a bad location, so they put it farther north for better reception.

 

[rmiller818]

There is no guarantee of an RCAG located at either of those VORs, however, El Toro is located on the now closed El Toro MCAS so an RCAG is not out of the question as some are located at airports. Seal Beach is located on the field at Los Alamitos AAF so once again not out of the question. You should also consider hills in the area as those are good locations with the height advantage. The RCAG near me is on top of a hill but no where near a VOR. By the way, RCOs are more likely to be located at VORs.

Also, most Large TRACONs are not located at the tower, in fact most are not located on an airport at all anymore, same thing with centers.

Hopefully someone more familiar with the area can chime in with some locations, I live in Georgia and can't really tell you much beyond that.

 

[CalebATC]

There is no guarantee of an RCAG located at either of those VORs, however, El Toro is located on the now closed El Toro MCAS so an RCAG is not out of the question as some are located at airports. Seal Beach is located on the field at Los Alamitos AAF so once again not out of the question. You should also consider hills in the area as those are good locations with the height advantage. The RCAG near me is on top of a hill but no where near a VOR. By the way, RCOs are more likely to be located at VORs.

Also, most Large TRACONs are not located at the tower, in fact most are not located on an airport at all anymore, same thing with centers.

Hopefully someone more familiar with the area can chime in with some locations, I live in Georgia and can't really tell you much beyond that.

I did forget to mention that. If you look at a sectional map, usually they will say "FOOTHILLS RCO," Usually when there is a RCO, there is almost 100% chance of a RCAG being there too. But the small airport VOR/DME's (Aka Terminal VOR's) don't usually have them, just the major ones, usually and almost 100% of the times they are VORTAC's, used by the military also. Some of the ATA-100's have the city location, but not the actual VORTAC's name, but it might be assumable.

 

[BMT]

132.8500
baldwin hills ca
lat/lon 340026n 1182143w
zla21 low


132.8500
pleasant peak ca
lat/lon 334750n 1173716w
zla21 low