Cleveland bought $2 million radio equipment that can't be used unless it buys more

[Thunderbolt]

CLEVELAND ---- The city last year spent more than $2 million on radio equipment that sits unused and can't be put in operation unless the city spends millions more on gear from the same company.

Cleveland bought $2 million radio equipment that can't be used unless it buys rest of system - Metro - cleveland.com

 

[Jay911]

How is a zone controller not compatible with other Motorola products? Unless it's something ancient like SZ3.0 and what they're being sold now is state-of-the-art. Plus, how many companies are selling Smartzone capable radios these days.. Mot, EFJ, Thales(?), etc..

What kind of purchase plan involves buying just a zone controller, anyway?

 

[PJH]

(Haven't looked) but I believe Clevland is a VSLEP system.

 

[radiomanNJ1]

Forget about anything else read the comments. I am sure some of them are posted by employees of the City.
Just have Verizon put up more towers?

I know that Cleveland was one of two places still using Vselp. They apparently refused or just slept while upgrades were in going on. Now of course they want someone else to pay for it.

Has anyone seen a Thales base station? Is GE Tinker Toy not proprietary?

 

[Jay911]

Dunno about base stations, but there are photographs of mobiles.

 

[PJH]

In speaking with someone who worked there... for quite some time, there was no money to convert the vslep from that to IMBE, and no reason at the time.

As Ohio built out its statewide system, and with Motorola no longer supporting VSLEP radios they are now forced to convert. Converting isn't cheap as some of us know.

On top of that, Motorola no longer sell's non-9600 systems, so any ASTRO field equipment that doesn't support 9600 will have to be replaced...as well as bunch of infrastructure equipment. About all they can salvage would be the consoles, towers, antenna's and the such.

In short, they have to buy a whole new everything. $$$

 

[Josh]

idk about all this

For one, it's VSELP, not VSLEP, idk if you're missing the right keys or what. Vector Slope Excitation Linear Prediction.

But secondly, and I was originally wrong here too with the thinking that Motorola will have nothing to do with 3600 baud systems. They still support it and probably sell it too, I mean all of MARCS is pretty recently manufactured and 3600 baud. Also, 3600 type trunking supports analog and digital talkgroups where 9600 does not.

The local airport here, Detroit Metro, recently installed a brand new 3600 analog and digital trunking system for airport ops. The police are digital, the rest of operations, FD, security, etc etc are all analog and probably still on the old MTS2000 radios used back when I worked there and everything was analog 3600 trunking.

VSELP is old, and I know that MARCS is eventually supposed to migrate to 9600 as well, but it will be pretty costly for sure, especially depending on the types of radios used on the system

The article doesn't go into any detail (obviously) about what kind of zone controller they bought in 2005 and what trunking protocols it is supposed to support. They don't make any mention of who said it would be incompatible with anything, but if the upgrade project is going out to bid, it will probably find itself useless with the implementation of a new MA/COM OpenSky thing that other cities and states have foolishly fallen for with their least expensive offering, which would be unfortunate knowing what problems it causes in the long run.

 

[N_Jay]

It is very hard to get 3600 trunking from Motorola, and almost impossible to get multi-site systems. (Requires buying parts on the secondary market)

Its one advantage is mixed digital/analog operation.

 

[PJH]

It is now impossible to get a 3600 system from Motorola. As pointed out in another thread, Motorola stopped selling them. Any system coming online now were purchased by the deadline...with NYC being the only customer to get a new one after it went NLA. Moto littereally had to "scrape" one together. NYC is also a very large Moto customer.

3600 went NLA in the last year or two. There is a notice that can be dug up on MOL.

MARCS radio's are 9600 flashed. I believe their 3000's also have the 9600 option, or at least quite a few do, according to one of the state radio guys.

Its actually vector sum excited linear prediction.

 

[EnidPuceflange]

Forget about anything else read the comments. I am sure some of them are posted by employees of the City.
Just have Verizon put up more towers?

I know that Cleveland was one of two places still using Vselp. They apparently refused or just slept while upgrades were in going on. Now of course they want someone else to pay for it.

Has anyone seen a Thales base station? Is GE Tinker Toy not proprietary?

It's Motorola. Why is everyone surprised? They managed to get the city to sign off on a $2M zone controller before anything else was agreed to ensure that they got the final contract. The only part of this whole story that is even slightly unusual is the following:

Cleveland's request for proposals for its new radio system, issued last month, required bidders to include the unused Motorola controller in the new system. Creech said that when vendors objected that they could not use the Motorola equipment, the city backed down and is now asking them to suggest ways to use it.

They actually backed down on requiring the system vendors to use it (which in itself is a stunning example of chutzpah - they claimed to be "helping out" the vendors by providing this). Now they are going to have to find some other way to ensure that Moto gets the contract.

I guess the only real surprise given business tactics like these is why Moto has a declining market share. Maybe folks can see that the overpriced outdated junk and fork-lift upgrades are getting hard to sell to taxpayers and bond issuers

 

[eorange]

What kind of purchase plan involves buying just a zone controller, anyway?

Lol, that was my very first thought too.

 

[Jay911]

Lol, that was my very first thought too.

It's like they found one on eBay and said "Hey we can use this in 5 years when we get all the rest of the stuff..."

 

[PJH]

Thats what happens when a government agency lets the IT department get involve. True, the core trunked system really is a computer with all that jazz, but it still takes the knowledge and veto power of a radio professional to make it all work. Many municpalities have turned over radio system to the computer geeks, and they have no concept on how radio is not like IP addresses in the field.

 

[Seadoo]

You are 100% correct PJH

 

[comsec1]

Pjh 100%

100% correct on that, countless systems have problems because the internet geeks screwed them up and then the vendor gets blamed. the FCC should not allow people without a GROL as a minimum requirment to work on a commercial public safety system.

 

[MTS2000des]

100% correct on that, countless systems have problems because the internet geeks screwed them up and then the vendor gets blamed. the FCC should not allow people without a GROL as a minimum requirment to work on a commercial public safety system.

well the FCC is too busy counting their Sprint-Nextel payoff checks to do real actual regulation of radio services. There in is the biggest issue with the FCC, they are too busy sucking up to their constituents (read the wireless carriers and other commercial lobbying interests) to serve the public interest. The FCC commissioners themselves have weak if at all RF backgrounds, they are all pork barrel lawyers for sale to the highest bidder.

Problem is many governments feel that IT people are also RF engineers, I am sorry but someone who takes a week course on WiFi networks is not capable of properly understanding RF propagation at various frequencies, modulation types, how to properly optimize a simulcast transmitter (digital or analog), troubleshoot interference and coverage issues. But because governments cut costs, finding qualified RF engineers and being able to pay them accordingly.

And we get what we have paid for. Oversold and under performing radio systems sold in a vendor controlled market being bought by people who don't know a megawatt from a hole in the ground. We just pay the bills when all is said and done.

 

[PJH]

I am not against IT guys in the dept. In fact, its pretty much required for any system that is a trunked radio system. The system itself it just a large server. Most of the backend these days are also driven by IP/data networks. RF is just the final output.

Now, where I have an issue - is when the IT god has final say to overide what the RF guys say. In the end...as far as the radio end goes, the RF guys are going to know. I think K4VST here can shed some more light into this subject than I can.

Either way, radio has become very intertwined with RF products. You have data, text messaging, GPS reporting. The only two common denominator is: IP addresses assigned to the radio, and the RF that gets it to/from.

 

[eorange]

the FCC should not allow people without a GROL as a minimum requirment to work on a commercial public safety system.

Not sure a GROL would qualify someone to design, install, and maintain a complex digital trunked radio system.

What you need are radio techs and project managers who have many years of experience with these systems in large metropolitan areas.

 

[budevans]

There is additional information regarding the zone controller in todays Cleveland Plain Dealer.

Here's the short version.

The $2 Million dollars came from a Federal grant to upgrade radio systems to current (interoperable) standards.

It was use it or lose it money.

The controller was purchased last year (2008). If Cleveland selects another vendor to do their radio system upgrade, the zone controller will be turned over to the State. It's compatible with the system the State is deploying (MARCS).

So there's no real down side to the purchase.