Coax length and Receiving?

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Bucephalus

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Does the run of the Coax have any thing to do with receiving? I am currently building a Discone and my mast is about 60 feet away from my shack. Do I need a pre-amp? Also, will Home Depot Coax be sufficient? What HD Coax would be best for a long run? Thanks. Doug
 

R1VINCE

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type of coax and length will have an effect on the signal getting to your radio.
some info here--->Coax Attenuation Chart
and here---->Coaxial Cable Attenuation Chart
I can only assume that your into getting RG6 since you mentioned Home Depot. In my opinion, if you have to get RG6, get the Quad shielded stuff(most likely the most expensive one there).
If you can spend a little more and wait a few days, Id suggest getting some Beldin9913 or LMR-400 coax.

If your using UHF connectors: LMR-400 here--->US MADE Times Microwave LMR-400 Cable 75 ft PL-259 UHF - eBay (item 230432512675 end time Jul-02-10 19:50:16 PDT) if you have or care to Ebay.

I dont have any links for "cheap" places for beldin9913 but im sure others will chime in with there links/suggestions.

I cant suggest anything for the preamp as I/we dont know what you want to listen to and how far it may be.

Good luck!
 

SkipSanders

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If you are in an urban area, preamps more often hurt you than help you. They just ensure that the local FM broadcast stations destroy your front end by desensing it, and cut your reception down to nothing.

More useful, therefore, is to buy an FM Broadcast Band trap, and put THAT at either the antenna or scanner end, for any outside antenna.
 

gary123

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for coax You can use rg6 (satellite cable) it has good performance and works very well in the 800 meg bands. The disadvantage is that it is 75ohm not 50 but this shouldnt make much differance. Yoou can easilly get adapters to convert the "F" connector to the PL259 the discone wants and a BNC for the scanner end.

If you wna to stay with 50 ohm cable then RG8 is the choice there

remember the quality of the cable is important get good cable ( check the shielding) and how easilly the cable bends it shouldnt bend too easilly and shouldnt crimp unlesss you bend it hard. This is important in satellite cable "dollar" store cable will work but the stuff the cable company or satellite install companys use is 100% better.
 

eorange

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For comparison - I have a 90 foot run of RG8X from my discone, and it works pretty well. Been using this configuration for years.

If anything, the discone is about 15 feet lower in height on the current house vs the former house (using the same length of coax run), and that probably makes more of a difference.

Keep in mind the shield on RG-6 is difficult to solder, if you prefer soldered connections (I do).

I've had great luck ordering coax from The RF Connection (recommended by a post here). They know their stuff and will provide straight answers.

http://www.therfc.com/

Good luck!
 
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benbenrf

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What coax to use and do you need a preamp?

By all means RG6 - but keep in mind a few things: attentuation per ft/per 100ft/per 100meters .. or whatever unit of lenth you are using, and the relationship between attentuation & gain and the pre-amp you decide to use.

Typical RG6 attentuation per 60ft at 100Mhz will be around 1.6 - 1.7 db. At 200Mhz it will be around 2dB - 2.1dB. At 400Mhz it goes up to around 2.5dB. At 600Mhz it's around 3.4dB (in other words your signal strength into the receiver has halved from the antenna!) and at 900Mhz it will be around 4dB (your signal strength from the antenna will have dropped to around 1/3).

Is this bad?
Nope, it's actually quite tolerable and so long as you're in a quiet area from an rf perspective you shouldn't have anything to worry about. But if its a noisy rf area, and you decide to use a preamp, things can get real noisy and complciated. I hate pre-amps as a rule. As most know they not only amplify the weak signal but they also amplify the noise - and now the quality of the coax does become an important issue.

Sadly, coax is usualy only thought of in terms of loss and mistmatch, and while loss and/or mismatch many will argue is not too big an issue in general VHF/UHF scanning scenarios, it can become a real impotant issue when a pre-amp is thrown into the equation.

Poor quality coax is plenty plenty more noisy than good quality coax - so you'll land up with the original noise picked up by the antenna, as well as the coax noise. In short: you get a poor SNR. I prefer to leave out the pre-amp where ever possible i.e. a weak signal with good SNR is almost always preferable to a strong signal with a poor SNR.

But there are cases where a pre-amp is unavodiable, and going to the effort of ensuring the best pre-amp for the job is used, requires a few poitns to be thought through.

Antenna Signal Strength
Having an idea of average signal strengths the antenna can provide you with in it's standard passive mode across the various frequencies it is going to be worked on, without the pre-amp in the link, is the starting point.

Receiver Sensitivity
What is the reciever sensitivity (i.e. min & max levels for various bandwidths).

Coax Loss
.. and of course the coax loss/attentuation at various frequencies.

Without this info, or at least an idea about it, you stand a chance of making things worse, not better, by introducing a preamp. Time & time again over the years I have seen amature and professional setups use the largest gain preamp that could be afforded - as if, "well I could afford the 20dB gain pre-amp - so I chose it" as if this was the best approach to take, or no attention was provided to the input level the pre-amp required to avoid its 1dB compression level, or no attention was proivded to it's gain levels across the bandwidth it was going to be used on.

Running pre-amps without at least some insight into the above, can fast makes things worse than they would, or could be withotu the pre-amp in the first place. Not only do they amplify basic noise levels (as everyone knows), but running any component in the link at at a higher gain level than that which is required or needed, will have output stages running most of their time, in, or very close to, their 1dB compression point. The result: poor signal levels, saturation and added distortion. The objective is defeated.

Read up on amp 1dB compression point - and just what impact it can have on received signal quality. All preamps & amps run best/most effiecently and at their quiestest when their input levels are in the reange they are designed to work with

By same token, be careful you don't run the preamp with too high a voltage. That too can quickly push a preamp into it's 1dB compression point and/or above - now you're going to have a real XXXX signal - loads of distrortion and loads of clipping. If the preamp is going to be run from dc over the coax, check out how much dc is lost over the length of coax used, and ensure the power supoply used can provide the extra voltage required - but not too much.

In summary: coax loss/attentuation over log runs at different frequencies should be quantified carefully if a pre-amp is going to be introduced to compensate for that loss. Knowing what the antenna gain is to start with, what signal strength the pre-amp needs at the diffrent frequencies to provide the amounts of gain required at those frequencies over the length of coax cable used wil ensure that the receiver gets the best possible signal avaliable.

What does it cost to keep in mind the above points when selecting a pre-amp? Nothing, just a bit of extra time.
 

SCPD

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coax

coax will make or break your scanner. The better the coax the better you pick up now as far as a preamp a preamp may steer you away from what you are trying to listen to. If you are in a city NO on the preamp you will over load the front end. If you are in the city LMR400 may overload your front end in this case you will need to use the ATT on your scanner. I was liveing in Phoenix AZ I had 25 ft of LMR400 and a discone antenna. Would you know I could not pick up the APCO25 without turning the ATT on . I now live Out by Colorado springs and I use RG58 with a discone antenna and I can pick up the APCO25 as far as 70 miles away. The Cov frequencies I can pick up Fort Collins which is 95 miles away loud and clear.
 

datainmotion

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And lastly (I didn't see it mentioned anywhere else in this thread), if you do decide on RG-6QS and will be burying it, make sure you get RG-6QS Flooded which will protect against moisture contamination inside the jacket.
 

Bucephalus

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Thank you!

I did not expect such a detailed reply. You people are masters. My home made dicone turned out good but it will not last outside. I have it hanging in my room and I am picking up more than I had on my 800 Mghz antenna. I am considering a Diamond Dicone, any comments on that? I have a grounded mast mounted on the side of my house with nothing on it. I really want to mount something on it and I want performance. Please send me all suggestions for a power scanner base. I have a Pro-96 and 95. I am in the process of purchasing the PSR 500. I want the hand set but would a base set be better? I am sure that with this and mounting it outside and high I will notice a difference? How much of a difference can I expect with this upgrade? Also how important is height with this antenna? I live in the city and have towers close by. Will the noise go away? I want clarity and how do I acheive this? Again, thanks you much guys.
 

benbenrf

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Discone will do you fine - but go to the trouble of looking at the various manufacturer spec's for the Discones that are avaliable on the retail market. Some are good and some are a waste of money (both in terms of performance and construction quality - you get what you pay for is no less true with antenna's i.e. the more you spend the better your Discone is likely to be).

No min height to raise the discone, but of course the higher you can raise it on the mast, the better it will perform.
 

phatboy48

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Since you live in the city, you do not want any extra gain in the antenna circuit. The discone will do just fine as it provides wide bandwidth and unity gain. In fact, you may well find that extra filtering may be necessary to eliminate receiver desense caused by strong out-of-band transmitters. I also live in the city, on a hill with an attic mounted home brew 3-band ground plane antenna. It proved necessary to install an FM band notch filter in series with a TV channel 14 notch filter to tame the desense to the point where my scanner can hear properly. The FM transmitters were desensing the VHF band and the TV transmitter was desensing the UHF 450 mHz band.

John
 

Bucephalus

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Do you have any recommendations? I live in Florida and there is alot of wind and lightening.
 

phatboy48

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As previous posters mentioned, make sure you purchase a heavy duty discone that can withstand the high winds and storms. It should have large elements and not thin wires. You should also consider installing a surge protection device in line with your coax to help reduce possible damage from nearby lightning surges. Such devices are made by such companies as Polyphaser among others. Make sure the mast pipe is well grounded to the same ground system as your surge protector. I have seen installations such as this where the antenna was literally blasted apart by lightning but the radio survived with little damage. The secret is a low impedance ("resistance") ground system.
 

benbenrf

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Reccomendations? - how longs a piece of string: I could reccomend a Chinese manufacturer for you, but their discones cost in the region of $500 - 1000 (and upwards in some cases) - yer, they are good quality Mil spec products that "do what they say on the tin" and you'll have a discone for life, or you could go for a $30 - $40 Radio Shack option that is going to be flimsy and will quickly corrode, or you could go for somethig in between these 2 extremes - of which there are loads of manufacturers.

Both Icom and Diamond have consumer discone models considered by America's FFC and United Kingdom's OFCOMM regulatory bodies to be good enough for undertaking field measurements & surveys - so, whats the starting point?

Budget - some idea of budget is a pretty good starting point?
 

Bucephalus

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Chinese manufacturer

Could you reccomend a Chinese manufacturer and some links? I would really appreciate that.
 
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