Creating/Renting a national radio system

[memtech3]

If I rent a dmr tier 3 radio site, can I connect it with other sites that are either rented or that I own?

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[TampaTyron]

Yes. Would you be willing to explain what you are trying to accomplish? There are a lot of very smart people here on this board who may be willing to share their knowledge and experience . TT

 

[memtech3]

This is going to be used for a large volunteer hurricane/rescue group. This would need to be able to be connected to "portable" (in hard cases that could be loaded in a van or car and driven to a location) and would need to allow us to manage some admin features of the system if rented.

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[buddrousa]

The big problem you are going to run into is your License is for an area. To operate your system in an area it would have to be licensed in that area otherwise you might be interfering with local Licensed users.

 

[TampaTyron]

There is a little detail that I helpful. We know what the group is and one component of the system. Now, tell us what you want the system to do. For example, you could say provide comms from a regional base to a convoy, comms from base/convoy to staging area, comms from personnel on the field back to regional/field base, etc. So, how much radius around each location do you need? Does it have to be man portable (i.e. carried in a bag or backpack)? What is the maximum distance that will need to be communicated over? What is your capital and operating budgets? TT

 

[memtech3]

The system needs to be able to communicate between rescuers and a zello gateway and possibly some dispatchers and supervisors. This network may or may not replace the use of zello in the field in certain areas. This network will definitely be deployed to boaters and is meant to keep comms between rescuers and everyone else with zello especially when the cell network goes down.

By "portable" I mean that I could stick a couple of repeaters in a pelican case and stick them up to get the maximum range possible. If there is a good way to portably have an 150ft mast, I'm interested.

I haven't been given budget info.

The system is going to be liscenced and we are going to stick to the rules. The organisation is looking to expand to other types of emergencies like earthquakes and tornadoes so if possible I would try to get either a Nationwide set of frequencies or a set of frequencies for each state (to avoid Nationwide liscencing woes)

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[alcahuete]

The big problem you are going to run into is your License is for an area. To operate your system in an area it would have to be licensed in that area otherwise you might be interfering with local Licensed users.

This is exactly what licenses for itinerant frequencies is meant to overcome. There are even rules in Part 90 for running temporary repeaters, etc.

Get licensed nationwide for the itinerant frequencies and you're good to go.

I would try to get either a Nationwide set of frequencies or a set of frequencies for each state (to avoid Nationwide liscencing woes)

No licensing woes involved. Just get licensed for the itinerant frequencies on a nationwide basis. $170 or so, no frequency coordination fees, etc. Very cheap and very easy to do.

 

[nd5y]

This is exactly what licenses for itinerant frequencies is meant to overcome. There are even rules in Part 90 for running temporary repeaters, etc.

Get licensed nationwide for the itinerant frequencies and you're good to go.

Except every other disaster organization, infrastructure contractor, whacker group, etc. are licensed on the itinerant channels so they would likely be congested or useless in a disaster area. It's not possible to get statewide or nationwide "private" frequencies. It might be more practical to get a STA for a specific location and time period.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

Licensing aside, I think a Tier III DMR would be difficult to handle practically (I will speak the pros and cons of the Tier III systems I have physically worked with). The only two Tier III systems I have worked with are Motorola's Capacity Max and Simoco's Xd.

Motorola's system appears to be fairly stable and getting support is as easy as calling Motorola during typical business hours and a recent upgrade allows for FB2's to be utilized instead of only FB8's. Plus, there are several current repeater solutions ranging from the SLR1000 to SLR5700 and SLR8000. The downside, the infrastructure required in addition to the repeaters consists of two CMSS's in the form of two full sized HP servers (rack mount) and a RM Server in the form of a desktop HP tower. Each "site" has to have IP access to these two devices (if using Motorola subs, you can only utilize the RM Server to program them and therefore have to have IP access to that just to provision radios onto the system…for any Tier III system). The CMSS's must be in place and accessible for any wide-area trunking functionality (otherwise you are stuck in site trunking).

With Simoco's system, the repeaters contain all of the local and wide-area trunking logic. So they serve in the roll of trunking controller (like the Motorola repeaters) and zone controller (the function of Motorola's CMSS). You don't have a dedicated core with this setup (actually what makes it different form most other Tier III setups) and the system only need IP connectivity to other sites to function. It can also handle full-duplex calling but that's a proprietary feature to Simoco. The downsides are that if you have a break in your IP link somewhere you can have multiple zone controllers pop up (which will correct itself soon after the "big chief pow wow" after reconnection) and that if you call Simoco for support, it better be during business hours…in the UK.

The other issue you will have is a logistical nightmare with keeping frequency programming up to date (if you need to change channels at a deployment due to interference). This will also require someone with a tracking generator to tune your combiners or the use of lossy, hybrid combiners. This can also be quite a pain for reprogramming subscribers.

If it were me, I'd start out with single site, single channel Capacity Plus and simply gateway the talkgroups you need linked remotely. If you need additional capacity for trunking, you can add channels but will have to reprogram subscribers to allow the new channel to be utilized.

 

[alcahuete]

Except every other disaster organization, infrastructure contractor, whacker group, etc. are licensed on the itinerant channels so they would likely be congested or useless in a disaster area. It's not possible to get statewide or nationwide "private" frequencies. It might be more practical to get a STA for a specific location and time period.

While true, they aren't going to be private, the licensing costs alone of doing it in multiple states is going to be astronomical. There are so many itinerant frequencies out there that it is doubtful every one will be in use. Using digital will even make it easier to get away from some of the interference.

 

[TampaTyron]

Additionally, relying on Zello into or out of the affected area is riky. The cell networks are typically the first to go down and last to go back up. Also if you get cut off from the outside world, Zello is useless (unless you are hosting it locally, which isn't common). At that point, it becomes about how you are connected to the I tenet and how you are providing that connection to the outside world.

A 150ft portable tower is not common, but 100ft towers are much more common. I have worked with several multiste trunking systems where the repeaters and microwave back haul was contained in the same trailer. Basically, you would deploy these trailers and they would have connectivity to each other. Then, you would have a Zello gateway somewhere connected to the radio system but also connected to the internet by VSAT, 4GLTE, etc. These setups were 100ft Aluma or Pepro trailers with Motorola Linked Capacity Plus (now known as Capacity Plus Multi Site) with long range microwave links embedded on the tower. Customer typically own the equipment and rent on short notice the number of radios needed.

You may also be interested in several nationwide PTT over satellite providers (Iridium, Inmarsat, and MSV/Skyterra) who provide national push-to-talk over satellite. I have connected a radio system in a disaster area to a PTT satellite sys via a radio gateway. Then have someone outside the area monitoring this channel (via patch to console or dedicated dispatcher sitting at a radio.

There are many new things coming down the pike, namely LTE on drones and the new CBRS radio band which will be private LTE open to all.

I work for a major manufacturer and have a piece of advise. Be very careful buying into a specific manufacturer, instead buy into the dealer/integrator putting it all together. A system made by a low tier manufacturer but installed properly will dramatically outperform a system made by a high tier manufacturer but is installed poorly. TT

 

[memtech3]

Tier 3 is necessary for the volume of calls and data. This system will use at least 16 logical channels on repeaters (meaning 9 frequencies with the control channel) and would probably need at least 8 more not on the repeater for if the repeater is down and for small area coms (unless group calling would be a better use of frequencies). There will be a private text set up to query tickets from our database by texting a hotspot which queries the DB and spits out a result. If at all possible, otap would be useful and encryption will be used. I would like to avoid itinerint frequencies as they might get busy. If needed, we might have to liscence frequencies for each area that we may need repeaters in. Is there a way to waive the liscencing fees?

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[TampaTyron]

You are asking for a significant level of system performance, one that most public safety agencies would envy. You would be looking at a 100 ft portable tower, 2 transmit combiners, one rx multicoupler, 3ea 3dB gain antennas, lightning arrestors, antenna standoff brackets, several runs of LMR600 (TCOM600), 10ea 50w repeaters (1 spare), 2 CMSS (1 spare), RM server, encryption (free), data interface ($$$), etc...... I would expect a budgetary ballpark of $500-600k for the single site plus $1k per subscriber radio. This would give you coverage of approx 7-9 mile radius around a fixed point. You would still need a truck to pull it, network connection to feed it data (LTE, VSAT, MERS, etc), fuel, competent tech to maintain it, etc. If you want multi site capability, then I would add approx 75% of the first site's number to account for adding microwave, but not needing additional CMSS/RM/etc. These are ballpark numbers and are VERY general. This would be with a bunch of nationwide itinerant frequencies because the chance of being licensed for the same frequencies in many locations is zero. To have different frequencies in each regional area or get frequencies issued on the fly, you would need to know the frequencies reasonably in advance of the deployment due to tuning combiners, filters, and programming the system. How many possible locations would you be deploying to? Due to the nature of your request, I am guessing this is a hospital/medical related based on lack of familiarity of "group calls." TT

 

[Project25_MASTR]

You are asking for a significant level of system performance, one that most public safety agencies would envy. You would be looking at a 100 ft portable tower, 2 transmit combiners, one rx multicoupler, 3ea 3dB gain antennas, lightning arrestors, antenna standoff brackets, several runs of LMR600 (TCOM600), 10ea 50w repeaters (1 spare), 2 CMSS (1 spare), RM server, encryption (free), data interface ($$$), etc...... I would expect a budgetary ballpark of $500-600k for the single site plus $1k per subscriber radio. This would give you coverage of approx 7-9 mile radius around a fixed point. You would still need a truck to pull it, network connection to feed it data (LTE, VSAT, MERS, etc), fuel, competent tech to maintain it, etc. If you want multi site capability, then I would add approx 75% of the first site's number to account for adding microwave, but not needing additional CMSS/RM/etc. These are ballpark numbers and are VERY general. This would be with a bunch of nationwide itinerant frequencies because the chance of being licensed for the same frequencies in many locations is zero. You would need to know the frequencies reasonably in advance of the deployment due to tuning combiners, filters, and programming the system. How many possible locations would you be deploying to? Due to the nature of your request, I am guessing this is a hospital/medical related based on lack of familiarity of "group calls." TT

You forgot about the multi-site license…

OP, PDV has tried this on a large scale basis and stopped expanding it (several hundred sites across multiple states). Cost-wise, they just can't compete with cheap, PTT LTE to keep loading the system (or even migrate it from Connect Plus to Capacity Max as Connect Plus).

 

[TampaTyron]

And PDVs primary focus was consolidation of 900mhz spectrum for conversion to LTE (owners were the old Nextel crew). It was a secondary goal to provide a national radio system, which never really grew out of regional networks. Their app was decent in the demos I saw, but it never could compete with LTE based competitors. I am afraid the days of nationwide PTT networks is gone. Now, PTT ends up being a service on the network. And you end up chasing a network connection to get anything moving. TT

 

[memtech3]

What could I do that could be cost effective. Do I need trunking in your opinion? I think that I do because of private/group calls and texting and radio emergencies and gps and possible all radio alerting (which could possibly be done by scanning a channel). I will consult to see if all channels are necessary but I know that we need some mobile sites so that we can have coverage outside of our home town as our team mobilizes when there are emergencies.

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[buddrousa]

As long as the OP knows they need to go through a national coordinator and does not interfere with local government.
Because they become part of the problem not a solution to the problem.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Why do you need Tier III? Tier II can do quite a bit, be less proprietary (Cheaper) and far easier to license.

There are frequencies in UHF that are for temporary operations, they are restricted power. You could license some of those plus some nationwide channel pairs at higher power.

You say you have no budget established. This is important. You might want to hire a vendor neutral consultant especially if this is a nationwide deployment.

 

[disastercomm]

What could I do that could be cost effective. Do I need trunking in your opinion? I think that I do because of private/group calls and texting and radio emergencies and gps and possible all radio alerting (which could possibly be done by scanning a channel). I will consult to see if all channels are necessary but I know that we need some mobile sites so that we can have coverage outside of our home town as our team mobilizes when there are emergencies.

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I believe what you are trying to do can be accomplished in a modular approach using regular UHF/VHF frequencies (none trunking), Zello, and MSAT-G3 or other Radio-Over-IP gateway and integrate them all together. This would enable all connections onto a nationwide channel of sorts that has the ability to enter the network via cellular, satellite, and UHF/VHF. I setup and used similar systems in Haiti, Puerto Rico, and most recently in Guam/Saipan. The best advice is to sit down and write all of your must have requirements and then build a modular system that meets those requirements. I have all of this available as a demo and can show after the new year. Let me know how I can help, Www.stevehailey.com

 

[memtech3]

What is an mMod

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