Creating/Renting a national radio system

[memtech3]

Requirements: main dispatch channel hooked up to zello, need tactical channels that are free so that people can be called to them, maybe a Roip gateway for each of those, tier 3 because I expect group calling and individual calling to happen and that needs trunking to work effectively. I do not believe we need msat as we usually have a place that provides us internet. Also, couldn't we use one msat per site to keep them all connected and have the Roip gateway?way at site 1?

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[memtech3]

Assuming that we don't have internet at the site?

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[disastercomm]

Yes that is correct.

 

[TampaTyron]

Now you're thinking! The MSAT with radio gateway is one possible way to link them together (one at each site for each talk group needing wide area). Private microwave is another. Now, 100ft mobile mast trailers are not cheap. I have seen then $50-60k for a medium duty one, but have seen them $3-5k on the surplus market.

There are now guys using tethered drones and stuff for a single repeater or LTE base stations. The wildland fire service has a few fixed wing drone repeaters that they launch over a fire area. But, you are looking at significant cost for a single voice path. Space Data runs high altitude single channel repeaters for the Fed Gov and oilfield customers along the southern border. They get 200-300 miles of portable coverage at 80,000-100,000ft, again single channel.

TT

 

[memtech3]

What software do I use to bridge repeaters? Do you recommend any repeaters?

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[memtech3]

How do I deploy mobile masts in hurricanes and floods?

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[TampaTyron]

The software to link will depend on repeater, linking type, and edge network access. You still have not settled on a deployable radio network type, so trying to decide specific software is premature.

You would not deploy a portable tower in a hurricane, only after and usually near a base or other staging area where there is fuel/security/routes in and out. You would deploy a portable tower in a flood typically at the edge of the disaster. You would not normally drag a tower through flood waters. The tower could then be repositioned as the "edge" of the disaster shifts OR you could deploy additional portable towers with microwave or satellite (VSAT or MSAT) link back to the original tower.

In the work I have done with the Federal Govt, they liked to build a BOO (Base of Operations) at a distance where you could put your thumb over the entire disaster area (i.e. when it was fully extended from your body it would completely cover the disaster). This isn't always possible. In my experience, the guy with the best logistics (including comms) is often the most successful. So, much of the technical feasibility of these solutions is going to be based on what your response looks like, what logistics you will have available, how simple it needs to be to deploy, and what the budget will be.

Since we are talking basically a big flash mob of boats, this will require some special sauce. TT

 

[memtech3]

What is the recipe for your special sauce?

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[TampaTyron]

Time, money, and experience.

In your case, it may be as simple as a long endurance drone lifting a low power cross band repeater linking VHF marine to uhf business. However, there are some legal issues with licensing VHF marine at high altitude and drone work at height (FAA certification, NOTAM, etc).

If I were you, I would contact all of the major radio manufacturers and request a proposal for them to solve your problem. Let them engineer it for you. If your organization is decently high profile, most would jump on it. You will need your requirements and budget in hand when making this request. You may also want to see if a cellular carrier would be willing to partner with your organization.

Normally, I am $250 an hour and am discouraged from participating in these online discussions. Whatever your solution ends up, I would suggest several options in your tool box and the ability to taylor the solution to the need at hand. TT

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Hire a vendor neutral consultant to interview the folks who will manage, transport and use the system. He will provide a needs assessment report, a conceptual design for two or three options and a budgetary cost of each with pros and cons. Tier 3 is way overkill unless you have a lot of subscribers on different talk groups. I have a distinct impression this ad-hoc group cannot afford such a system. It is going to be moved about and used under hostile conditions and used by minimally trained personnel. Simplicity is the key to success under these situations. A voice system is extremely valuable in the initial hours and days of an emergency where you are mobilizing folks and materials. Nobody has time to put down a crate of food and answer a text asking them where the meals are. A quick reply on a radio is enough and in a group situation anyone can answer "Bobs busy unloading the truck at the back door right now" . For the text and data, there are so many other new options to explore, they don't need to be tethered to voice radio. As far as talking "100's of thousands of miles", Most emergencies take place in a limited geographic radius, even the worst ones. Coverage of the incident scene and connectivity to the mother ship back at HQ is all normally needed. For caravans, simplex 25 or 50 watt mobile radios with a mag mount antenna (for the rentals) will work fine. If the caravan has slower vehicles and has spread out, some vehicles can position themselves as relays along the route.

 

[memtech3]

This is a large hurricane response group. They spread everywhere. The emergencies span across multiple states.

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[RFI-EMI-GUY]

This is a large hurricane response group. They spread everywhere. The emergencies span across multiple states.

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That may be the case, but on the ground you will be communicating mostly with those closest to you. I am not discounting the need for a circuit back to HQ, but talking from the Texas Panhandle to the Gulf Coast of Florida, while impressive if it could be done, is not going to provide much utility to those on the scene in Mexico Beach FL.

To do such a wide area of coverage is beyond the budget of most government agencies.

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[memtech3]

Dispatch happens mostly from people off-site over zello.

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[memtech3]

What about cbridge? It doesn't need to cover every area in between and it doesn't need to be permenant. Are there any agencies that would partner with us and share their repeaters? Is that a feasible idea?

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[w2xq]

Memtech3, as a very knowledgeable friend suggested to me, you are going to run up against the problem of your group playing in the sandboxes of others. Others don't like to cooperate, much less share or relinquish authority.

 

[memtech3]

Hm. All we need is voice and data paths, not necessarily control over the system. Just a way to patch it with our other sites.

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[w2xq]

I should have added "or resources" to the above.

Noble idea, but interop is still a slow work in progress around all the agencies that couldn't talk to each other on 9-11 as the towers fell. City, regional, state, federal... foobar. Trying to do it nationally? Many sandboxes...

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Hm. All we need is voice and data paths, not necessarily control over the system. Just a way to patch it with our other sites.

Tapatalk

In all liklihood you are going to need a satellite link (minimum two terminals) to link a UHF repeater in the incident zone back to "modern civilization" where the radio 4W E&M can connect to some fixed Zello device.



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[disastercomm]

I agree with the w2xq that you would be hard pressed to find agencies and orgs that would share their systems. Your best bet is to build your own. I would also agree with op about hiring an independent consultant who is manufacturer agnostic to help build a requirements document and RFP. I do this type of consulting worldwide with over 25yrs of Public Safety and Disaster Technology experience. I have responded to over 100 disasters worldwide to include 9/11, Hur. Katrina, Haiti Earthquake, Hur. Maria in PR, and most recently to Typhoon Yutu in Guam and Saipan. I have worked for American Red Cross NHQ, iNGO's, US Fed Gov, United Nations, and local agencies and orgs. I can be reached at www.stevehailey.com and charge $250hr. I would be happy to discuss how to accomplish this for you utilizing MSAT, Cellular, VSAT, BGAN, UHF/VHF Repeaters, etc. and will help you find the best technologies to fit your requirements.

 

[disastercomm]

I forgot to add. I can demo pretty much exactly what you are trying to do using MSAT-G3, Vehicle Repeaters, UHF Radios, VSAT, and Zello. I have a ford Explorer with all of this installed as well a a portable pelican case setup. Let me know when you'd like to see it working.