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Creating/Renting a national radio system
- Thread starter memtech3
- Start date
- Status
Understood. Where approx. are you located?
jim202
Member
Having lived and still have my home in southern Louisiana, we have been involved with both a number of cellular companies and many public safety agencies over the years. Communications will go down during any major hurricane. This is a proven fact. You can't rely on any cable connection for Internet links for a while after the storm. Generally this will be in the order of weeks into months, depending on the amount of storm damage.
Having worked for several radio system consultants over the years, I have seen many radio towers become the victim of the storm. Even microwave links will need to have their dishes re pointed due to the high wind blowing them off alignment. Power will be out for weeks and the roads will be impassable for many weeks.
Don't plan on being able to get anything local for any data link you may need. Don't plan on being able to use the local electrical power, as it will be out for a long time. Just trying to obtain fuel for your vehicles to move around will be a major problem. Then comes the issue of trying to obtain fuel for your emergency generators. You may be able to obtain diesel fuel much easier than gasoline. So your vehicles might be better off running on diesel.
The lines at the gas stations will be up to a mile or so long, if you can find one with electrical power to run the pumps. Plan on paying with cash as the network connection to try and run charge cards will be down. Don't even think about trying to cut the line. Your libel to get shot. People in a storm damaged region have very short tempers and their ability to wait in line is a real test of their ability to withstand the activity around them.
Someone mentioned the use of a satellite phone. Better not plan on that being your prime way of communication. Right after Hurricane Katrina, the first few days it works fairly well. But once the help arrived, you couldn't make a satellite phone call if your life depended on it. With so many people coming into the area, they filled up the system capacity and you were left out in the cold.
Another problem you will encounter is the local telephone central offices will probably be down. Here in the New Orleans area, there was something like 18 telephone central offices that had major damage done to them from Andrew. They either were flooded out or had generator problems, long line cable problems or a combination of problems.
So you will have to plan to be on your own for communications for the first several weeks. Not much will probably be functional after a Gulf hurricane roars through. Make that a snow storm and the problems are some what different, but you will still have the same type of problems.
You might be able to set up a temporary radio repeater on a tall building. But expect to have to lug all the needed equipment up stairs, as the elevator will be down. No power to run anything. So you will need to lug a generator up to the roof to run your local repeater. Don't forget an antenna and support mast. Then there is the issue of fuel for the generator. Don't forget you will have to change the oil in any generator after about 50 hours or so for a small generator and 100 to 200 hours for a trailer mounted generator. You can't expect the local auto parts store to be open to obtain extra oil and fuel filters, oil for the generators and any other spare part for the engine you may just find out you need.
Not trying to blow your ego, but these are just some of the problems your going to run into.
Oh, forgot one major item. You will need to obtain papers to allow you to get pass the law enforcement road blocks to keep out the riff raft, vandals and people just wanting to drive around to sight see the damage. I have even seen the state police even stop National Guard vehicles trying to come into New Orleans after some of the storms that came through here.
You really need to have an agency to vouch for you to be able to get into a storm damaged area. You will need that piece of paper giving you permission for each vehicle to enter the restricted areas. So do your homework. It needs to be done during a time nothing is going on. To wait until the storm hits, your too late.
I know I have gotten long winded, but I don't think you understand the issues a region has when a major storm hits. The law enforcement people will have a short fuse and you don't want to get on the wrong side of them.
The Red Cross has learned over the years just how bad communications is in a major storm hit region. They bring in their own comm vehicles with a satellite dish and phone system. The Salvation Army is a close second with what they bring in. To just say you want to help is fine. But having a plan and working with an establish agency is a much better way to operate.
Don't forget to bring your own food. It will be in short supply as well as something to drink. The local stores won't be open to supply your needs. It has to come with you.
Good luck on your endeavor.
Having worked for several radio system consultants over the years, I have seen many radio towers become the victim of the storm. Even microwave links will need to have their dishes re pointed due to the high wind blowing them off alignment. Power will be out for weeks and the roads will be impassable for many weeks.
Don't plan on being able to get anything local for any data link you may need. Don't plan on being able to use the local electrical power, as it will be out for a long time. Just trying to obtain fuel for your vehicles to move around will be a major problem. Then comes the issue of trying to obtain fuel for your emergency generators. You may be able to obtain diesel fuel much easier than gasoline. So your vehicles might be better off running on diesel.
The lines at the gas stations will be up to a mile or so long, if you can find one with electrical power to run the pumps. Plan on paying with cash as the network connection to try and run charge cards will be down. Don't even think about trying to cut the line. Your libel to get shot. People in a storm damaged region have very short tempers and their ability to wait in line is a real test of their ability to withstand the activity around them.
Someone mentioned the use of a satellite phone. Better not plan on that being your prime way of communication. Right after Hurricane Katrina, the first few days it works fairly well. But once the help arrived, you couldn't make a satellite phone call if your life depended on it. With so many people coming into the area, they filled up the system capacity and you were left out in the cold.
Another problem you will encounter is the local telephone central offices will probably be down. Here in the New Orleans area, there was something like 18 telephone central offices that had major damage done to them from Andrew. They either were flooded out or had generator problems, long line cable problems or a combination of problems.
So you will have to plan to be on your own for communications for the first several weeks. Not much will probably be functional after a Gulf hurricane roars through. Make that a snow storm and the problems are some what different, but you will still have the same type of problems.
You might be able to set up a temporary radio repeater on a tall building. But expect to have to lug all the needed equipment up stairs, as the elevator will be down. No power to run anything. So you will need to lug a generator up to the roof to run your local repeater. Don't forget an antenna and support mast. Then there is the issue of fuel for the generator. Don't forget you will have to change the oil in any generator after about 50 hours or so for a small generator and 100 to 200 hours for a trailer mounted generator. You can't expect the local auto parts store to be open to obtain extra oil and fuel filters, oil for the generators and any other spare part for the engine you may just find out you need.
Not trying to blow your ego, but these are just some of the problems your going to run into.
Oh, forgot one major item. You will need to obtain papers to allow you to get pass the law enforcement road blocks to keep out the riff raft, vandals and people just wanting to drive around to sight see the damage. I have even seen the state police even stop National Guard vehicles trying to come into New Orleans after some of the storms that came through here.
You really need to have an agency to vouch for you to be able to get into a storm damaged area. You will need that piece of paper giving you permission for each vehicle to enter the restricted areas. So do your homework. It needs to be done during a time nothing is going on. To wait until the storm hits, your too late.
I know I have gotten long winded, but I don't think you understand the issues a region has when a major storm hits. The law enforcement people will have a short fuse and you don't want to get on the wrong side of them.
The Red Cross has learned over the years just how bad communications is in a major storm hit region. They bring in their own comm vehicles with a satellite dish and phone system. The Salvation Army is a close second with what they bring in. To just say you want to help is fine. But having a plan and working with an establish agency is a much better way to operate.
Don't forget to bring your own food. It will be in short supply as well as something to drink. The local stores won't be open to supply your needs. It has to come with you.
Good luck on your endeavor.
Thanks. This is organization has been rescuing for a couple of years now and is able to obtain said paperwork. I do understand that we would have to drag everything around with no power. I am aware that it is a challenge to do. Which is why I came here. Somehow, the organization manages to have some internet/cell connectivity in areas affected. The organizationtion is based in New Orleans but I am in Houston.
Tapatalk
Tapatalk
Project25_MASTR
Millennial Graying OBT Guy
It might be worthwhile to get a hold of Team Rubicon in Grand Prairie, TX as they've gone through much of this as well and have a deployable comms setup that may interest you. They are also a non-profit and rely on donations of services and equipment on their comms equipment.
speedway_navigator
Member
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2008
- Messages
- 1,305
My Nextel didn't work in New Orleans after Katrina but my Verizon did. Our BOO was at the airport, we had power but it was pitch black all around at night, except for a few odd streetlights. I've been to many of the places disastercomm has, even to Guam for Mangkhut.
As far as UHF freqs go, when I was doing special events with Bearcom I would STA about a dozen repeater pairs when we only needed half as many, thanks to DMR and trunking. (My first year working the Oscars I had 26 analog repeaters scattered in and on the Kodak theater.)
I put all freq pairs in the portables but only used those pairs that had the least amount of local traffic in the repeaters. If we had RFI I could change just that repeater and the portables would find it as part of their scan process.
As far as UHF freqs go, when I was doing special events with Bearcom I would STA about a dozen repeater pairs when we only needed half as many, thanks to DMR and trunking. (My first year working the Oscars I had 26 analog repeaters scattered in and on the Kodak theater.)
I put all freq pairs in the portables but only used those pairs that had the least amount of local traffic in the repeaters. If we had RFI I could change just that repeater and the portables would find it as part of their scan process.
Project25_MASTR
Millennial Graying OBT Guy
Yes…and neither. As a Motorola guy, I cant recommend their Tier 3 solution and honestly I can’t justify either with all the turd flinging going on between the companies.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I support a lot of Moto DMR Tier 3 systems. I do not have experience with Hytera DMR Tiew 3 products other than testing their subscribers on Moto Tier 3 systems.
Moto Tier 3 systems have a mode to use other vendor's subscribers. I believe you have to pay extra for that feature. Keep in mind, that you will not be able to program over the air, enforce subscriber authentication, and will have less whiz bang features of the competing vendors radios on a moto system. But, you will be able to use the basic PTT functionality.
I would buy whoever's system had the best local dealer, because that will be the team you interface with most. Also, once you have your infrastructure in place, test a sample of each vendor's radio to see how it would perform.
TT
Moto Tier 3 systems have a mode to use other vendor's subscribers. I believe you have to pay extra for that feature. Keep in mind, that you will not be able to program over the air, enforce subscriber authentication, and will have less whiz bang features of the competing vendors radios on a moto system. But, you will be able to use the basic PTT functionality.
I would buy whoever's system had the best local dealer, because that will be the team you interface with most. Also, once you have your infrastructure in place, test a sample of each vendor's radio to see how it would perform.
TT
Because each vendors otap solution is proprietary, the system will only integrate the radios of the same manufacturer. But, you can have a second parallel data setup allowing data to be sent to the other vendor's subscribers (I avoid control stations because they are not able to reach multiple RF sites. Most of my projects are 3-12 and sometimes up to 99 Cap Max sites. TT
Cool stuff and vendor open are mutually exclusive. The cool stuff is the part where each vendor tries to get you to buy their radios and their infrastructure. Authentication in Moto is done via radio ID and radio serial number. If not Motorola, then there can be NO Authentication or radio ID authentication. TT
If you want high end options you pay higher prices
In my experience, it is approx 10x between MOTOTRBO tier 3 and p25. Approx 15x between normal MOTOTRBO and p25. I don't recommend P25 unless you have a regulatory requirement OR need one of its specific features: AES crypto, simulcast, Extreme High Noise audio accessories, etc. Subscriber cost is a small percentage of total system cost. Again, I mostly deal with MOTOTRBO, so I am admittedly biased. But, it will come down to budget, support, and capability. TT
Project25_MASTR
Millennial Graying OBT Guy
RF Technology’s site controller is $29,000. Kenwood’s Atlas site controller is $29,000.
Motorola’s Connect Plus controller was $29,000.
Cap Max is $28,000 for the CMSS’s and RM Server (the core).
Both Atlas and RFT use the DFSI interface to control repeaters and multiple DFSI capable repeater will work with them.
RF Technology Eclipse 2/3 repeaters are $7000 each (dealer cost).
Motorola SLR8000s are about $8000 each for the Cap Max licensing. I believe there is also a site license that has to be tagged onto that per site.
Now the P25 infrastructure is Phase 2 ready…I haven’t looked into the phase 2 license yet.
Subscriber-wise, XPR5550e and XPR7550e radios are nearly $1200 each at MSRP but if you can get carrier pricing cost is under $500. At dealer pricing, Simoco and GME have Phase 1 mobiles at $800 each and Icom’s new P25 line is around $1200 each for dealer pricing (not including Phase 2 upgrade).
Something else to consider, I saw a pallet of Quantars (22 in total) sell for $1200 not too long ago. Add a M-RIC per repeater and you could put up Phase 1 sites for $2000 per repeater to get up and running.
Personally, I think P25 scales much better but it’s really a case of what you can find/obtain.
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