Digital radio in the fire service

[ASTRO2001]

A WARNING to firefighter and fire dept the NFPA does not require that fire dept to switch to Digital I found this out first hand also link below.I was on a fire dept years and they are not going digital ever. There will be more firefighter that will die on this not ready digital radio system I can wait to tell a family member that a chief of the dept wanted to go to this new digital system becuase it is cool and works and no one can hear you going to call like Mandan ND they are DIgital Encrypted that is just asking for it.

YouTube - Digital Trunked Radio Problems for Orlando Firefighters

YouTube - Indianapolis police and fire digital P25 radio problems

Dropped radio calls put firefighters in danger | Daryl Jones' Weblog

Colerain Township, Ohio -- Radio problems during fatal fire | Daryl Jones' Weblog

 

[BoxAlarm187]

No, there isn't a requirement to go digitial, but there are very few departments out there that have gone digital that are going to revert back to analog. Some have, yes, but it's not the norm.

Have you seen this report?

My work department has been digital for 12 years, and there are zero plans to go back to analog. It was $32M when it was installed over a decade ago, so re-engineering the system probably isn't going to happen anytime soon. We those of us in the field that know something about radios perfer an analog system? Sure, but we don't control the purse strings either.

Where I volunteer, we're analog with no plans to change anytime soon.

One thing to keep in mind is going to be the eventual requirement for 6.25kHz spacing, and whether or not analog radios are going to be able to accomplish that with success.

This proliferation of digital radios in the fire service is necessary evil that we must deal with on a daily basis.

 

[ff-medic]

I read reports that P25 was hindered , in converting the voice to data during loud / disrupting noises. For fire personnel = Fire engines running loud while pumping water , power saws ( cutting a roof for ventilation ) , loud background noise on scene.

For Law Enforcement - Talking on radios with siren activated, wind blowing while outside teh cruiser..talking on handheld , talkiing on the radio near large crouds / croud control , and other background noises ( running rivers, water falls , dams , passing vehicles ).

Correct, or not, I read the report about FDNY firefighters on " 9/11 " , Disheartening. The lack of commmunications due to the error in digital tranmissions. Common sense, and being deductive....makes one belive that digital transmissions is good for one thing and one thing only...and that is Data Transmissions only. K.I.S.S = keep it simple stiupid , theory. Complicating radio communications in Public Safety is only asking for disaster. Some Joe = " Hey, lets turn analog transmission into a computer language ! " . Why? " Well , becaue you can get a clearer transmission when you talk to someone 300 miles away...it won't be distorted !" Welll, Uhhhh, Oh-kay.

I look at Digital transmissions, and I look at / examine LAPD's radio system that they have had forever. I look at the Departments in Florida, as well as some others in California...and their success. So....a open question for all...Where did P25 go wrong?

The more I read about APCO this and APCO that, and P25 this and P25 that.....I get more nervous and scared for others. Millions and millions of taxpayer dollars......spend erronously. " Interoperability". If P25 / Digital ; was not around.....Would there still be a way to " Interoperable" ? Yeah...my thinking exactly. But the technicians, and the manufacturers , as well as the enginners have a plan for us all, and for the Public Safety groups. The plan...I belive, is to run to follow the armored car to the bank with their earnings.

Some techs, manufacturers do well. A large portion of others don't. The ones doing well have the market cornered, and make well over a 900 to 1000 % profit , a profit..well out of bounds for impoverished agencys / agencys with a low tax base / small community..whom simply cannot affford the prices, unless a grant is obtained. For some of the manufactures that is O.K , the income from those smaller agenycs is not needed, as they are doing extremely well with government contracts..and large municipalitys. Spit on the little guy, we don't need to work with you ; or take heed to your complaints or problems. Were are independantly rich, and as well..we have political connections..and a contract signed that promises income for "Years" down the road.

Congress needs to do something about the raping of America in reference to Homeland Security money, monopolizing of services , and Public Safety agencys. Money flows into political lobbiest...and re-election funds from corporate America. Corporations getting a hefty return on their investment...at the expense of tax payers. The very ones they crap on. I'll step on my soap box, and say Motorola , " MoneyRolla" is one of my largest complaints. I neither intend to offend anyone , or discredit some services. But Motorola at times..really..really , ticks me off.

Digital services needs examined by law makers. Investigative committes formed. Organization this and organization that can say what they want ; they are " talking in the wind".

FF - Medic !!!

 

[WX4JCW]

Not all Florida Switches to Apco 25 were total successes, Orlando Fire runs all its structure fires and such on the Counties Analog System for the above reasons

 

[ajohansson]

FF MEDIC,

you took the words out of my mouth. I am so tired of people thinking P25 equals interoperability. The biggest scam I have ever seen.

 

[LtDoc]

And just for grins...
The NFPA has no say in the type of communications systems used. They have the same option as any one else if they want to comment on a type of communications system, but that's about it.
It's a very good idea to keep 'things' as simple as possible, and to have a 'fall back' system handy. Having done that fire fighting thing for a number of years, and also having 'played' with radios for even longer, I think that KISS principal is smart. Then you get to deal with what falls through the cracks.
- 'Doc

 

[n5ims]

Systems don't have to be 100% P-25 or 100% digital either. You can have a system that is a combination of both where which mode used depends on how the radio is programmed. You also can have either type of system and get a few channels designed for analog simplex (possibly with repeater capability as well for larger area use) that the radio is switched to when needed.

What would happen with the combination system is general communication (dispatch, command communications with apparatus in route, etc.) would be done using the normal talkgroups, while fire ground operations (or incident command operations for PD) would use the analog simplex channel. The on-scene communications may be patched through to an assigned talkgroup for logging and remote monitoring as well, if desired. Since the simplex transmissions don't travel very far, multiple locations could easily share a single frequency in large cities or counties just as long as sufficient distance seperates them (although if patching is used, they should patch to seperate talkgroups).

 

[pvl]

Stating the obvious, the FCC, not the NFPA regulates the radio spectrum in the USA. The demands placed on limited spectrum will increase, not decrease. In the event analog can't meet 6.25 KHZ bandwidth mark or less, digital is here to stay. I have no way of knowing , but seeing 6.25KHz on the horizon, may have played a role in the decision to invest in digital now for some local governments. Software is touted as an advantage for digital, hopefully new audio processing software can solve the problems being experienced. The all or nothing of digital will always be a factor as far as I know.

 

[SCPD]

Hitting the tower

Food for thought.

How many of the problems blamed on digital are actually not the mode?

Is it because fireground comms went from simplex to repeater at the same time they went from analog to digital? So instead of the radio talking directly to fellow firefighters at the scene, like in the analog days, the radio now has to make a repeater site miles away, and make it back to the radio of the firefighter he can see standing right next to him.

Or is the mode being blamed, instead of the band of frequencies chosen?

The old analog was on VHF or UHF. Dependable range of frequencies. New digital systems are usually up on 800 mhz, where anything can reflect, refract or absorb the signal. Ever move 3 feet with your cell, and see your signal go from good to bad? Perfect example of the issues of having critical communications at near microwave frequencies.

My opinion:
700 and 800 Mhz just isn't meant for voice, no matter the mode.
It's great for data, it just keeps trying until the parity gets right.
But fireground and other "at a scene" need to be simplex, and on VHF. You're going inside buildings, in basements, leaning against metal structure, etc. It's just not the place for 800 Mhz thru a machine miles away.

 

[MTS2000des]

Food for thought.

How many of the problems blamed on digital are actually not the mode?

Is it because fireground comms went from simplex to repeater at the same time they went from analog to digital? So instead of the radio talking directly to fellow firefighters at the scene, like in the analog days, the radio now has to make a repeater site miles away, and make it back to the radio of the firefighter he can see standing right next to him.

Or is the mode being blamed, instead of the band of frequencies chosen?

The old analog was on VHF or UHF. Dependable range of frequencies. New digital systems are usually up on 800 mhz, where anything can reflect, refract or absorb the signal. Ever move 3 feet with your cell, and see your signal go from good to bad? Perfect example of the issues of having critical communications at near microwave frequencies.

My opinion:
700 and 800 Mhz just isn't meant for voice, no matter the mode.
It's great for data, it just keeps trying until the parity gets right.
But fireground and other "at a scene" need to be simplex, and on VHF. You're going inside buildings, in basements, leaning against metal structure, etc. It's just not the place for 800 Mhz thru a machine miles away.

VHF sucks for urban area use, ever tried talking on a VHF radio SIMPLEX inside a reinforced concrete skyscraper to someone three floors below or above? Not happening. UHF and 700/800 work much better in such situations.

There is no blanket single band that meets all of public safety's need for robust coverage, digital or analog isn't the issue- different bands have different propagation characteristics.

VHF high band works great in suburban and mountainous areas, but portable body worn radios are at a disadvantage due to antenna size and design. Electrical interference now plagues VHF in populated areas making it all but useless in some areas. UHF and 700/800 are poor choices in rural and terrain challenging areas but excel in urban areas filled with steel and concrete. The city of NY's UHF T-band analog system gives 2 watt body worn portable radios 98 percent in-building coverage anywhere in the city.

It all comes down to how a system is designed, engineered and implemented. There is no "one size fits all" solution.

 

[n5ims]

How many of the problems blamed on digital are actually not the mode?

Is it because fireground comms went from simplex to repeater at the same time they went from analog to digital? So instead of the radio talking directly to fellow firefighters at the scene, like in the analog days, the radio now has to make a repeater site miles away, and make it back to the radio of the firefighter he can see standing right next to him.

Or is the mode being blamed, instead of the band of frequencies chosen?

Much of the testing to confirm and scientifically document the issues were done with the same path, but different modes so only the differences between wide-band analog voice, narrow-band analog voice, P-25 digital voice, and P-25 enhanced digital voice. Some testing added MOTOTrbo and other digital technologies into the mix as well. This testing pointed out that the background noise from normal fireground operation caused issues with the digital encoding of the voice that made it difficult to understand what was being said while analog transmissions weren't so difficult to understand.

While the simplex to repeater operation may also be an issue, it's generally not the real issue here. This can be fixed in several ways, moving to simplex for fireground operations, adding sites, etc. The real issue is even with a great signal, the communication can't be understood when there's the normal loud background noise with the P-25 digital audio.

 

[SCPD]

VHF sucks for urban area use, ever tried talking on a VHF radio SIMPLEX inside a reinforced concrete skyscraper to someone three floors below or above? Not happening. UHF and 700/800 work much better in such situations. UHF and 700/800 are poor choices in rural and terrain challenging areas but excel in urban areas filled with steel and concrete.

I have no experience with VHF two way, other than ham.

I work at a 5 square mile industrial plant with well over a thousand UHF 4 watt handhelds on simplex. We go in concrete basements three flights below the pavement, work inside areas surrounded by metal, and it has consistantly worked very well for us, even with much metal and concrete between.

About 3 years ago, our Moto vendor came in with 800 mhz radios trying to sell us a $2 million dollar plantwide system. We walked about the same places with the radios, and comms were spotty at best. I'm not saying I'm right, but from personal trial and error, I feel that UHF is better than 800 in an industrial plant surrounded by metal and in concrete basements under ground level.

I cannot comment or give any authoritive opinion about digital having background noise issues, I concede that. I've never talked on a P25 or OpenSky radio. We do have some MotoTrbo capable radios now where I'm at, but we are not licensed for the mode, so I'm not programming them that way yet.

 

[jeffreyinberthoud]

Ya know you only hear about the one plane that crashed ,You never hear a reporter say
"there were 8569 successful flights today in the USA with zero inciodents"

. So all the crying foul does nothing there are 10 's of thousands of successful incidents each and every day that have no radio isseus ,Ya it sucks when there is one bad but life is life
the origional post is over emoting

 

[Citywide173]

Ya know you only hear about the one plane that crashed ,You never hear a reporter say
"there were 8569 successful flights today in the USA with zero inciodents"

. So all the crying foul does nothing there are 10 's of thousands of successful incidents each and every day that have no radio isseus ,Ya it sucks when there is one bad but life is life
the origional post is over emoting

I'll agree, the original post is over-emoting....about a decade behind the times, and wrong in the belief that the NFPA has any say in this matter. I don't know why they posted it in the first place, as it has been beaten ad nauseum.

HOWEVER, One life lost is too many when there is even the remotest chance it could have been avoided. The NYC and Philly reports show the shortcomings of digital systems-they aren't designed for use in the fire service. Can it be done right? Sure, look at Providence, RI Fire Department's setup; Digital Citywide Trunked System with analog fireground channels that are repeated onto the trunk via vehicular repeaters

 

[JRayfield]

Can you point me to where I can see the results of these test with MOTOTRBO, that you mention here?

I've done testing myself with MOTOTRBO in high background noise environments and have found it to work as well, or better, than analog in those circumstances. This included fire engine noise (including air horn going off), siren on patrol car, 4 hp gasoline engine within 12 to 18 inches of the radio, and a grinding wheel (while grinding on metal). I've also heard MOTOTRBO used in a helicopter (absolutely superior to analog). And a local law enforcement agency and a local fire department both tested MOTOTRBO and found it to be equal or better than analog with respect to background noise (and that included using it with SCBA equipment).

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma

Much of the testing to confirm and scientifically document the issues were done with the same path, but different modes so only the differences between wide-band analog voice, narrow-band analog voice, P-25 digital voice, and P-25 enhanced digital voice. Some testing added MOTOTrbo and other digital technologies into the mix as well. This testing pointed out that the background noise from normal fireground operation caused issues with the digital encoding of the voice that made it difficult to understand what was being said while analog transmissions weren't so difficult to understand.

While the simplex to repeater operation may also be an issue, it's generally not the real issue here. This can be fixed in several ways, moving to simplex for fireground operations, adding sites, etc. The real issue is even with a great signal, the communication can't be understood when there's the normal loud background noise with the P-25 digital audio.

 

[iamhere300]

To the NFPA comments, NFPA is not a requirement, but it is the standard to which you will be held in a court room. IE, if a widow sues you do the non-performance of your radio system (Or percieved non-performance) they are going to hit hard on why you went with a system that did not meet the industry accepted standard, IE NFPA.

NFPA does not require digital in any way, but what it does say is that if you are digital, it be P25 digital, not TRBO, not IDAS, not NXDN.