BCD436HP/BCD536HP: DMR and air band

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ATCTech

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Alcahuete, your statement about error reduction is exactly correct. There is a misunderstanding with casual readers/listeners that somehow CPDLC is going to be used to vector aircraft at 3 mile spacing in TRACON airspace during IMC conditions. This is simply not true. CPDLC removes substantial volumes of routine voice communication and less time-sensitive exchanges from both the flight crew and controller's workload. If a route change is required, or an altitude change, or a "direct" request is placed and granted there is no need for verbal communications. I've posted some of the current ATC uplink messages elsewhere online for readers to see. Frequency changes, handoffs to the next facility, route requests etc. are all done in a brief, accurate and timely manner without the need for voice transactions on otherwise busy frequencies. Our controllers were to some extent apprehensive at first, however pretty much all of them quickly adapted and came to appreciate the reduced radio workload almost immediately.

To those who say "simply add more frequencies", again you don't understand the complexities of ATC airspace. Adding frequencies means adding sectors which means adding controllers. Ultimately that ends up with flights being given frequency changes at an alarming, and quite frankly a confusing rate as they transition through sector boundaries. That's very inefficient operation of the airspace. CPDLC removes the voice traffic for those rapid handoffs. En route sector layouts are typically designed to accommodate the maximum logical flow of traffic in that area, east/west, or north south for example while working traffic within altitude or other restrictions. There's more to it than this, but it would be overload for this forum and a load of typing.

Frequencies are at a premium. Adding them adds all kinds of technical problems, intermodulation and interference opportunities and so forth. I know, I've worked on them in the existing 25kHz environment for decades. The geographic re-use of frequencies is always a very limited possibility because airborne traffic is subject to hearing multiple sources. Atmospheric conditions can and do magnify that on a regular basis.

My 2 cents worth, but I've worked in the ATC environment as we rolled out CPDLC and have seen the way ATC uses it to the best possible advantage. It is here, and it will grow in capability.

Cheers!
 
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majoco

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alcahuete said:
but the majority of airline traffic will be off the radio in the next couple years.

Got a source for this wild statement? Data communications are fine when there's not a lot of urgency involved, but when an aircraft is approaching a dangerous situation quite rapidly there is no substitute for "Flight 1234 make an immediate right turn" on the radio.
 

kayn1n32008

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Got a source for this wild statement? Data communications are fine when there's not a lot of urgency involved, but when an aircraft is approaching a dangerous situation quite rapidly there is no substitute for "Flight 1234 make an immediate right turn" on the radio.

He said MAJORITY, not all.



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alcahuete

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Got a source for this wild statement?

Yes...me. I'm a manager with the FAA. The change has already started taking place and is gradually being implement over the next several years. I can't speak for New Zealand and have no idea what is going on over there, but since ICAO and Europe are also making this push, I can only imagine that New Zealand will as well at some point.

If you actually read my posts, you'll see that I said the default communications method is still going to be voice, particularly because general aviation aircraft (business jets excluded) are not going to be CPDLC equipped anytime soon, if ever. But at some point in the not-so-distant future, the majority of airline traffic is going to take place over CPDLC, with a very small minority taking place over voice.
 

ATCTech

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Alcahuete, I was with Transport Canada (Air) then NAV Canada for a total of 34 years, Technical Operations at Toronto Centre. As you probably know we've had CPDLC available in all our domestic high level airspace across Canada since about 2014, plus of course Gander Oceanic well prior to that.
 

majoco

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CPDLC was actually trialled and tested in the South Pacific - called FANS for the trial - way back in 1996.

FANS heads for introduction in Pacific

New Zealand, which already has a CPDLC capability, will be ready on 10 July 1996

I'm a retired Air NZ Avionics Engineer. I was installing Cat lllc Instrument Landings Systems at Heathrow way back in the late 60's and I was there when the first PanAm 747 landed.
 
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AI7PM

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In 2003 I was a guinea pig in a cadre for NASA at the Ames Research Center. We were running simulations with advanced spacing tools to the DFW airport. We did some runs with voice, and others with CPDLC. 16 years later seems both technologies are still in trial and research. I have to wonder if that would be different if US ATC were privatized?
 

chief21

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I imagine that CPDLC is a one-to-one data communication. If so, it will never replace the typical one-to-many voice communication that is necessary to control numerous aircraft in a given airspace. This is the "situational awareness" that was mentioned earlier.
 

ShyFlyer

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That's the plan anyway.
This is one of those "I'll believe it when I see it" things.

I can remember a time where it was thought the sky would be full of supersonic transports. MLS would revolutionize instrument approaches. Civilian GPS would never be approved for enroute/terminal IFR navigation let alone approaches. Single-engine piston production wouldn't ever come back.
 

ATCTech

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CPDLC is already being used almost exclusively in the busiest trans-oceanic airspace in the world, the north Atlantic. Other than check-ins when entering/exiting Gander and Shannon Oceanic almost all ATC instructions are issued directly via CPDLC, very little voice is ever heard compared to 10 years ago. It works guys, whether you like it or not. Just stating a fact.
 

ShyFlyer

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I never said it doesn't work. There will always be voice comms in the terminal environment and for VFR operations. I see it dominating IFR enroute operations in the next 10 ~ 15 years domestically, though.
 

kayn1n32008

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CPDLC is already being used almost exclusively in the busiest trans-oceanic airspace in the world, the north Atlantic. Other than check-ins when entering/exiting Gander and Shannon Oceanic almost all ATC instructions are issued directly via CPDLC, very little voice is ever heard compared to 10 years ago. It works guys, whether you like it or not. Just stating a fact.

Would it be safe to assume that CPDLC is carried via satcoms? Inmarsat or similar?


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DaveNF2G

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Controller situational awareness and pilot situational awareness are two entirely different things.
 

majoco

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Controller situational awareness and pilot situational awareness are two entirely different things.
Once an aircraft gets into VHF range, CPDLC loses it's advantages - as Dave says - the pilot must have 'situation awareness' which includes the controller talking to other aircraft and the other aircraft reporting their positions back to the controller. Even on over-water flights where CPDLC is in use, ADSB and TCAS keep the flight crew aware of other aircraft. On the 'unofficial' 123.45 chat frequency you often hear "I see you..." when another aircraft is spotted or have been forewarned by ATC via CPDLC or HF voice. Conversations between aircraft going in the same direction may last for some time, mainly to relieve the boredom..... :)
 

jaymatt1978

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People forget the isn't a lot of new airports going up around the country and the spectrum is pretty much wide open. Unlike all other part of the spectrum aircraft owns 108-136 MHz. Digital modes were invented to use certain parts of the spectrum more efficiently. We c an debate whether the sound quality got better or worse all day long but the signals are more efficient. Also the move to 8.33 kHz spectrum has taken forever, I can't imagine how long the move to any kind of a digital system would take.
 

kayn1n32008

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People forget the isn't a lot of new airports going up around the country and the spectrum is pretty much wide open. Unlike all other part of the spectrum aircraft owns 108-136 MHz. Digital modes were invented to use certain parts of the spectrum more efficiently. We c an debate whether the sound quality got better or worse all day long but the signals are more efficient. Also the move to 8.33 kHz spectrum has taken forever, I can't imagine how long the move to any kind of a digital system would take.

The point is moot, there will likely NEVER be digital voice used with in the VHF-Air band, while it may seem that VHF-Air is ‘wide open’ on the ground, but at 30,000’ you can hear hundreds of miles, it’s much more congested.


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AI7PM

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People forget the isn't a lot of new airports going up around the country and the spectrum is pretty much wide open. .......

Airports have little to do with the equation. The spectrum is not "wide open" at 12.5 khz spacing. There is an increasing need for frequencies in the en route airspace. At high altitude, a frequency is not reusable for nearly 600 miles.
 
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