• Effective immediately we will be deleting, without notice, any negative threads or posts that deal with the use of encryption and streaming of scanner audio.

    We've noticed a huge increase in rants and negative posts that revolve around agencies going to encryption due to the broadcasting of scanner audio on the internet. It's now worn out and continues to be the same recycled rants. These rants hijack the threads and derail the conversation. They no longer have a place anywhere on this forum other than in the designated threads in the Rants forum in the Tavern.

    If you violate these guidelines your post will be deleted without notice and an infraction will be issued. We are not against discussion of this issue. You just need to do it in the right place. For example:
    https://forums.radioreference.com/rants/224104-official-thread-live-audio-feeds-scanners-wait-encryption.html

DMR still in the clear in the future?

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#1
do you honestly think that any new future DMR systems will be in the clear with all the information posted on this site? not starting an argument,but raising a point to be considered.
 
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do you honestly think that any new future DMR systems will be in the clear with all the information posted on this site? not starting an argument,but raising a point to be considered.


Honestly, any systems that have peace officers on it, will likely encrypt the peace officer talk groups. University security, transit peace officers, and local/county/Municipal District/equivalent where you live bylaw officers are trending towards encryption in Canada.

If all you want to listen to is law enforcement, you are rapidly coming to the end to listening.


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SCPD

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#3
Honestly, any systems that have peace officers on it, will likely encrypt the peace officer talk groups. University security, transit peace officers, and local/county/Municipal District/equivalent where you live bylaw officers are trending towards encryption in Canada.

If all you want to listen to is law enforcement, you are rapidly coming to the end to listening.


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Maybe everyone should start using Slack or some other form of secure communications, these forums are wide open for the very people we don't want reading....reading everything we post about how to monitor their communications. Hackers don't post on open forums about what networks they would like to monitor next.

The question is what would be a better method of communication for everyone here that is still secure from the authorities. Slack is the only thing that comes to mind right now but I am sure there are others.
 
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Maybe everyone should start using Slack or some other form of secure communications, these forums are wide open for the very people we don't want reading....reading everything we post about how to monitor their communications. Hackers don't post on open forums about what networks they would like to monitor next.

The question is what would be a better method of communication for everyone here that is still secure from the authorities. Slack is the only thing that comes to mind right now but I am sure there are others.
Too late. The cat is already out of the bag. Anybody responsible for comms in Canada is already is aware of broadcastify, and the audio of Cst. Styles that was broadcast. The movement to secure comms for law enforcement in Canada has been underway for some time now. With in the next couple of years you likely wont be able to find much, if any, unencrypted law enforcement in Canada.
 

mbstone99

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#5
Too late. The cat is already out of the bag. Anybody responsible for comms in Canada is already is aware of broadcastify, and the audio of Cst. Styles that was broadcast. The movement to secure comms for law enforcement in Canada has been underway for some time now. With in the next couple of years you likely wont be able to find much, if any, unencrypted law enforcement in Canada.
True.. most of the law enforcement in the GTA is already encrypted, some have been for a number of years already.. There is one not that I know of that isn't and I am sure when they get around to upgrading their system they will follow suite as well.

Matt
 
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True.. most of the law enforcement in the GTA is already encrypted, some have been for a number of years already.. There is one not that I know of that isn't and I am sure when they get around to upgrading their system they will follow suite as well.

Matt
There are very few police agencies left in Canada that are unencrypted. Those that are unencrypted, will probably encrypt when they have to replace their current equipment.

Places like Winnepeg and Saskatoon have been encrypted for many years.

Other agencies like Vancouver are currently unencrypted, although they use Provoice. How ever when the current system is replaced, they will be encrypted.
 

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The question however wasn't asking how many police agencies will be in the clear, he was asking how many DMR systems will be in the clear. From my travels all over southwestern Ontario the over whelming majority of DMR systems are in the clear. You have to remember that most of these systems are commercial/business users and really they aren't too concerned about voice privacy. Yes, police agencies likely will be (see St. Thomas and Aylmer recently) as well as tow companies and such that need privacy to protect their business. But many many systems now and in the future will be open.
 
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if i might chime in,my original post was an answer to another question that a member posted about upgrading a Uniden with Provoice and DMR. my post was removed from the thread and started a new thread.now,its been moved here.i was just stating that if the information that is posted on this site might sway commercial future DMR purchasers to use encryption,and therefore the scanner upgrade wouldnt be worth it.
 
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The question however wasn't asking how many police agencies will be in the clear, he was asking how many DMR systems will be in the clear.
Totally understand.

What I was saying, is any system owner that is worth their salary, that has law enforcement/police/peace officers will encrypt those users. I agree though, majority of systems that do not have public safety on them, will not encrypt.

In my neck of the woods, many county/MD owners that have peace officer/by-law enforcement on their shiny new DMR systems ARE encrypting those talkgroups, heck even two fire departments have gone to DMR with full time encryption.

From my travels all over southwestern Ontario the over whelming majority of DMR systems are in the clear. You have to remember that most of these systems are commercial/business users and really they aren't too concerned about voice privacy.
Pretty much what is happening here too.



if i might chime in,my original post was an answer to another question that a member posted about upgrading a Uniden with Provoice and DMR. my post was removed from the thread and started a new thread.now,its been moved here.i was just stating that if the information that is posted on this site might sway commercial future DMR purchasers to use encryption,and therefore the scanner upgrade wouldnt be worth it.

If all they want to listen to is law enforcement, then it may be a waste of money, however, as forts has lauded to, the vast majority of these systems will be unencrypted.
 
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#11
do you honestly think that any new future DMR systems will be in the clear with all the information posted on this site? not starting an argument,but raising a point to be considered.
I think once they start live feeds of DMR systems you will start seeing them go dark. Like anything else once the subscribers panic the will switch over to at least the lowest level of encryption.
 

RRR

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#12
Important note, one of the selling points Motorola salesmen used to sell DMR systems to the end users, was the (at the time) fact they could not be monitored on a scanner. That was good enough for the end user, no need to go through all the additional programming hoops, voice degradation, loss of usable range, missed calls while scanning multiple TS's and systems and so forth (on radios, not roaming but scanning) that comes with enabling encryption.

Now that this has changed, and folks are pissing all over themselves to make it well known to everyone they can tell, that DMR can now be monitored on a scanner, these users that were enjoying their perceived privacy will now most likely ask their radio shop folks to enable their unused encryption, or the shop folks will advise them to do it, possibly. -But if they find out their assumed "private" DMR system is being broadcast for all to hear without their knowledge or approval, then you can surely bet that the radio techs will be checking the enc box, entering a code and programming the repeater to pass encryption. That's their defense, and if y'all keep pushing them to do it, that's what you get, and there is no easy or legal way around it.

Why this "I can hear you on DMR, I will broadcast it for everyone else to hear too" stuff is being touted so much, I just can't understand. I come from the "old school" I guess, and kinda keep what I hear to myself, or share with a few close, trusted friends. Once something makes the internet (not just from RadioReference, but facebook and such) and gets found out, it will probably get changed. So you got your 5 mins of glory, but then soon you likely lose the ability to monitor it from then on.

Encryption is available in almost every current radio and radio system being marketed now. Why would anyone want to taunt the users into implementing it, is beyond me. But I sit back and watch it happen every day, and just shake my head. Common sense sure isn't very common anymore.
 
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#13
That was good enough for the end user, no need to go through all the additional programming hoops,
Not really that many hoops to jump through to enable encryption on DMR. For basic and 40bit, you do not even need a KVL.

voice degradation,
That was an issue back in the day with analogue DVP, not an issue with DES/AES encryption when used with DMR, NXDN or P25

loss of usable range,
Modern encryption does not result in a loss of range when encrypting digital voice. It's still 1's and 0's to the receiver.

missed calls while scanning multiple TS's and systems and so forth (on radios, not roaming but scanning) that comes with enabling encryption.
The issues listed are not caused by using encryption, and are not made worse by using encryption either.
 
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#14
Important note, one of the selling points Motorola salesmen used to sell DMR systems to the end users, was the (at the time) fact they could not be monitored on a scanner. That was good enough for the end user, no need to go through all the additional programming hoops, voice degradation, loss of usable range, missed calls while scanning multiple TS's and systems and so forth (on radios, not roaming but scanning) that comes with enabling encryption.

Now that this has changed, and folks are pissing all over themselves to make it well known to everyone they can tell, that DMR can now be monitored on a scanner, these users that were enjoying their perceived privacy will now most likely ask their radio shop folks to enable their unused encryption, or the shop folks will advise them to do it, possibly. -But if they find out their assumed "private" DMR system is being broadcast for all to hear without their knowledge or approval, then you can surely bet that the radio techs will be checking the enc box, entering a code and programming the repeater to pass encryption. That's their defense, and if y'all keep pushing them to do it, that's what you get, and there is no easy or legal way around it.

Why this "I can hear you on DMR, I will broadcast it for everyone else to hear too" stuff is being touted so much, I just can't understand. I come from the "old school" I guess, and kinda keep what I hear to myself, or share with a few close, trusted friends. Once something makes the internet (not just from RadioReference, but facebook and such) and gets found out, it will probably get changed. So you got your 5 mins of glory, but then soon you likely lose the ability to monitor it from then on.

Encryption is available in almost every current radio and radio system being marketed now. Why would anyone want to taunt the users into implementing it, is beyond me. But I sit back and watch it happen every day, and just shake my head. Common sense sure isn't very common anymore.
I never understood. Do they get paid for streams? Why invest money in all this equipment to run it 24/7 as a stream?

Yeah back in the days we always believed in keeping what we hear on scanners to ourselves not broadcast it out for the world.
 
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