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BCDx36HP: DMR Tier 3

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KevinC

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#1
I've seen several posts about Tier 3, but they got lost in all the other posts so here goes...

I found a Tier 3 system, sitting on the CC my 536 doesn't indicate it's DMR of ANY flavor. It just mutes the audio and sits there. On a VC it will decode the audio, but not give any other info except the time slot. A 436 acts the same way.

DSD+ properly identifies the CC and shows info on the VC as well.

Am I missing something or is this how it really handles Tier 3 systems?
 

enosjones

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#2
I know it hangs on it and won't resume scanning I usually get a color code , and a slot, but won't resume scanning, that's all I know about DT3


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buddrousa

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#5
My 536's and 436 track a Tier 3 system that is 5 3 channel sites and gives me all the correct info took me awhile to get the LNC's correct as far as I can tell I have to drive about 20 miles to hear this system to test.
 

buddrousa

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#7
It took several trips before I had much luck. When I did most of my testing the system only had 1 user group 3 of the 5 sites active and maybe 1 or 2 transmissions an hour LNC finder would run hours then 1 or 2 FW updates before PUBLIC RELEASE it started working and seams to work good when I am in the area.
 

KevinC

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#8
It took several trips before I had much luck. When I did most of my testing the system only had 1 user group 3 of the 5 sites active and maybe 1 or 2 transmissions an hour LNC finder would run hours then 1 or 2 FW updates before PUBLIC RELEASE it started working and seams to work good when I am in the area.
Do you know who the manufacturer is?
 

enosjones

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#10
Questar Gas is adding DT3 sites, they have Motorola type II sites also, but have added more DT3 sites as of late in utah and some parts of Wyoming, so far my observation has been it hangs, it does get tg's and talks but it's not a very active system..


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wbigcount

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#12
I have a local T3 system figured out mostly.

I have DSD+ and 536hp running side by side, the 536 only gets about 10% of the traffic that DSD+ shows.

Works great on Con+ and Cap systems just not T3
 

KCoax

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#13
It might be that the Uniden's are having a difficult time with the data protocol vs. the voice traffic. The utility companies send their call tickets out over the same air.
 

UPMan

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#14
If you are having the DT3 issue, can you please make a log file while monitoring and attach it to this thread? Also mention what channel(s) with a link to the RRDB page if it exists.

To make a log file:
1) Power up while holding AVOID.
2) MENU --> SETTINGS --> Set Debug Log Mode --> SD Card File
3) Monitor for a bit (a minute or two is plenty).
4) MENU --> SETTINGS --> Set Debug Log Mode --> Off
5) File is in the debug directory on the SD card.
 

UPMan

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UPMan

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#18
Not in the RR database. DSD+ decodes it as TIII, Site:H2-1.3 DCC1.
Engineer's review:
Network ID: 1
Site ID: 2
Color Code: 1

The log file does not have any Voice channel grant message.
There is a Privacy Indicator message.
Also all control signal block (CSBK) messages have a CRC error.
It might be a scramble code.
 

KevinC

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#19
Engineer's review:
Network ID: 1
Site ID: 2
Color Code: 1

The log file does not have any Voice channel grant message.
There is a Privacy Indicator message.
Also all control signal block (CSBK) messages have a CRC error.
It might be a scramble code.
All of that matches DSD+, but my Uniden doesn't even recognize it as being ANY DMR flavor. It just mutes the audio and displays no indication of it being DMR.

Does Tier III offer CC encryption or some other way to obfuscate the data?
 
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kruser

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#20
All of that matches DSD+, but my Uniden doesn't even recognize it as being ANY DMR flavor. It just mutes the audio and displays no indication of it being DMR.

Does Tier III offer CC encryption or some other way to obfuscate the data?
I suspect some form of encryption may be causing me issues as well.
The system I'm monitoring is not in the (downloadable) database yet so I can't tell how it will be imported into a x36HP model.
Uniden's last DB pull is dated 1/1/2017 so the next time they do a DB pull and publish, the system should be able to be imported.
I'm able to monitor the system in conventional mode and my 4 and 536HP's all show it as DT3 so they are at least recognizing that fact.
The system is still not carrying voice traffic yet so I can't tell what voice channels will do when it becomes fully active.
I don't even know what the voice channels may be as the sites FCC license still show it as an analog system I think.

The system in the DB here is at: Warner Communications (DMR 13) Trunking System, Shiloh, Multi-State - Scanner Frequencies and I'm working with Site 5 which gives me pretty much full signal.
I do not know the system manufacturer but knowing the radio system vendor, my guess is it is a Motorola system.
DSD+ is only showing the active neighbor sites in its logs.

Once some voice traffic starts, I'll capture some logs so Paul can have them looked at but I don't see any sense in doing that yet with zero voice traffic.
I did once see what appeared to be a voice channel spit out in DSD+ but I accidently deleted that info when upgrading DSD+ to the most recent version.

I wish there were a proven way to add a real discriminator tap to an Icom R9000 but as complex as that receiver is, it seems there may be several tap points for the various modes. I thought the auxiliary 8 pin DIN jack on the rear panel spit out unfiltered audio as the manual leads one to think but I quickly found out it just duplicates the front panel jack that spits out fixed level (but filtered) audio for recording or feeding an external audio amp.
I don't feel like pulling the R9000 out of my rack just to experiment and try and find an FM or NFM baseband audio output point. The radio weighs nearly 50 pounds so its not an easy task getting at it for experimenting!
I did tap my R7000 which uses a single tap point but I had issues as the tap point says to just insert a 10k resistor inline for the output but that really screws up the R7000 center tune meter reading. It drives the meter almost full deflection to the right with or without a signal.
I was able to use a non polarized lytic cap of 50 volts and about 4.7 uF to keep the center tune reading correct. Any smaller value ceramic cap value like 1.0 or less just ended up filtering the audio so higher baud rate systems would not pass the baseband audio out to DSD.

I may start a new thread to see if anyone has a better value cap for filtering the DC present on the R7000's recommended tap point.

Anyway, that's all I know about T-III DMR systems at this time!

I do have an Icom R-2500 that has a built in tap which works great at least up to 9600 baud. It was intended for Packet protocol by Icom but passes anything I've sent through it to DSD+.
I also have an R8500 but it is not connected to a decent antenna for scanner type services as I mainly use it for HF signals. It has a simple jumper inside that converts the 10.7 MHz IF output to baseband audio instead and works well for HF modes. I assume that output would also work very well for VHF and above baseband audio output.
 
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