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TRX-2: DMR with RAS

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benering

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#1
I am having trouble scanning a DMR conventional frequency with RAS. I can hear transmissions perfectly when I do a "Tune Mode Search" and enable DMR on that frequency (No other changes to defaults). If I save that to an object, and monitor that object, I cannot hear anything (Transmissions heard via DSD/SDR). I have tried every combination of settings I can think of, but cannot make this work. Any ideas? This is looking more like a bug in Whistler software to me every minute...
 

wbloss

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#2
I am having trouble scanning a DMR conventional frequency with RAS. I can hear transmissions perfectly when I do a "Tune Mode Search" and enable DMR on that frequency (No other changes to defaults). If I save that to an object, and monitor that object, I cannot hear anything (Transmissions heard via DSD/SDR). I have tried every combination of settings I can think of, but cannot make this work. Any ideas? This is looking more like a bug in Whistler software to me every minute...

have you seen this: https://forums.radioreference.com/voice-control-channel-decoding-software/279062-mototrbo-restricted-access-system-ras.html
 

Ubbe

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#3
Yes, it's a bug. The same one they had earlier that RAS doesn't decode during scan but works in search and manual tune.
Or was it never fixed since 2016?

/Ubbe
 
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#4
Hallelujah I thought it was only me. I have this issue on my trx-1 and trx-2 and a friend has it on his ws1080


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benering

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#5
I've tried contacting Whistler support via their web link about this, but have not heard back from them yet. I also called, but they are closed before I get home from work at night... I've sent another email to the address that WhistlerWendy just posted, so hopefully I'll get an answer back. This one system I'm trying to monitor is the main reason I bought the TRX-2, so hopefully there is a resolution to this.
 
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#6
With mine it cuts in to the conversation sometimes some 7 seconds after it has started and then I rarely hear the replies works fine in tune mode or limit search. The system I am trying to monitor is trunked I have tried setting it up as conventional to see if that helped but it didn’t. Thing is it worked fine until whistler released a firmware update saying “better reception of ras enabled systems” as one of the fixes last year.


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benering

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#7
Does anyone know if you can downgrade the firmware? If so, where would you get it from? Which version would be the one without the "better reception of RAS enabled systems", and what else would we be giving up by going with the older firmware?
 

Ubbe

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#8
Whistler are usually quick to correct these kind of bugs so I wouldn't bother to load old firmware.
The limit search and manual tune are probably sharing the same code segment but scan are a totally different code segment and they probably just plainly forgot to add that upgraded code for RAS detection.

They are known to forget about what changes they already have done to bandplans and other things when a new firmware are released but as soon as they are aware of the problem they usually come out with a new firmware within days.

/Ubbe
 
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#9
I can say both Uniden and Whistler suffer from slow decoding of RAS encoded transmissions. This has been going on for a while in monitoring three different RAS conventional repeaters in my area. Two on UHF and one VHF.

A Motorola XPR7550E portable with proper RAS key decodes instantly and 100% of the time. Probably 90% of transmissions miss part or all of the transmission using a TRX-2.

On a side note - the TRX-2 does a fantastic job decoding the local county P25 phase 1 LSM simulcast system. Just it takes too long for it to figure out the transmission is a voice call on a DMR RAS call and decode.

DSD+ Fastlane with discriminator tapped scanner decodes 100% also.

I do not know if there is a way for Whistler to fix this.
 

benering

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#10
@Ubbe - OK. But how do I know that they are aware of the issue? I've emailed twice, and no response...

@RocketNJ - If I sit on the frequency, The TRX-2 does a fantastic job of decoding the voice on this particular DMR/RAS system. It does better than the SDRSharp + DSD system that I am using to check against. If only it would open up the channel when I was scanning, I would not have a problem.
 

Ubbe

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#11
The TRX-2 DMR RAS decoding works perfect when you are not scanning. Uniden have big problems as it sometimes thinks normal DMR channels have RAS and disconnects the error correction which give false decodes and misses starts of transmisisons among other things.

The times I have reported bugs to Whistler they usually never responded back to me. It was just a few weeks ago that I had a RAS system to monitor that had any activity that I noted that RAS didn't work, so I haven't reported it in. I could try the new email adress that Wendy gave us.

/Ubbe
 
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#12
@Ubbe - OK. But how do I know that they are aware of the issue? I've emailed twice, and no response...

@RocketNJ - If I sit on the frequency, The TRX-2 does a fantastic job of decoding the voice on this particular DMR/RAS system. It does better than the SDRSharp + DSD system that I am using to check against. If only it would open up the channel when I was scanning, I would not have a problem.
Which version of DSD? The free version doesn't do well with RAS. The paid FastLane version decodes RAS 100%

With DSD+, TRX-2, and a Motorola XPR7550E (with RAS code) decoding a local conventional RAS enabled channel the XPR and DSD_ FastLane decode 100%. The TRX-2 is consistently slow to start unmuting. This is parked on the frequency and not scanning. The TRX-2 has to look at the data stream and see if it is a voice call before it unmutes. If there is a reply such as "10-4" most of the time the TRX-2 will miss it.
 
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#13
The TRX-2 DMR RAS decoding works perfect when you are not scanning. Uniden have big problems as it sometimes thinks normal DMR channels have RAS and disconnects the error correction which give false decodes and misses starts of transmisisons among other things.

The times I have reported bugs to Whistler they usually never responded back to me. It was just a few weeks ago that I had a RAS system to monitor that had any activity that I noted that RAS didn't work, so I haven't reported it in. I could try the new email adress that Wendy gave us.

/Ubbe


I have emailed the issue to them on the new email. The more that do so the better to let them know there is indeed an issue and it’s not a one off.


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#14
Which version of DSD? The free version doesn't do well with RAS. The paid FastLane version decodes RAS 100%

With DSD+, TRX-2, and a Motorola XPR7550E (with RAS code) decoding a local conventional RAS enabled channel the XPR and DSD_ FastLane decode 100%. The TRX-2 is consistently slow to start unmuting. This is parked on the frequency and not scanning. The TRX-2 has to look at the data stream and see if it is a voice call before it unmutes. If there is a reply such as "10-4" most of the time the TRX-2 will miss it.


Yes this is how it is for me too, scanning or held on a talkgroup (my ras enabled system is trunked) it is very slow to realise there’s a conversation taking place.


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Ubbe

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#15
The standard DSDplus 1.101pt version struggles a bit with its RAS decoding and is very similar to Unidens decoding. But the times I try Whistler it seems to work 100%.

/Ubbe
 
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#16
Well well....should have thought about RAS being the problem sooner.

Seems to be my problem also. (https://forums.radioreference.com/whistler-scanners/367887-trx-capacity-max-systems.html) I thought it was a control channel problem with DMR TIII and the two different modes but the system I'm trying to scan has RAS. So it's probably the culprit.

My friend has an Uniden and it's the same problem.

I made data dumps and sent it to Whistlers engineers has requested by them when I contacted them and nothing for now.

I think they have a problem with RAS and won't give us answers until they fix it.
 
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#17
I think they have a problem with RAS and won't give us answers until they fix it.
I can't see it fail at all when stationary on the frequency, so to me they have the decode routine dialed in but it is somehow not enabled in scan. If they need data dumps they should be done when scanning over the frequency with the DMR transmission to see why it doesn't stop the scanning.

/Ubbe
 

benering

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#18
I see the same results as Ubbe. When monitoring the frequency, the decode is very good. I see no issues there. It’s more like the scanner is flat out ignoring the data stream when it is scanning or monitoring the object. You can see through the signal meter that the scanner sees a radio signal but seems to do nothing with it.
 
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#19
The problem when scanning is the scanner can't start decoding by monitoring the data in the header of the packet. Since RAS injects an encrypted "key" into the header the packet would fail normal CRC check. The scanner needs to listen to the body of the packet and determine it is a voice call, then unmute.

Here listening to my local PD and FD which are on UHF convention RAS enabled repeaters, with the scanner locked on the frequency it still misses short transmissions such as "10-4". Other transmissions might miss the first couple of words.

Comparing it to an XPR7550e with proper RAS code and you can really hear how slow the TRX-2 is to decode.

Don't know if there is an easy answer to this.
 

benering

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#20
The problem when scanning is the scanner can't start decoding by monitoring the data in the header of the packet. Since RAS injects an encrypted "key" into the header the packet would fail normal CRC check. The scanner needs to listen to the body of the packet and determine it is a voice call, then unmute.

Here listening to my local PD and FD which are on UHF convention RAS enabled repeaters, with the scanner locked on the frequency it still misses short transmissions such as "10-4". Other transmissions might miss the first couple of words.

Comparing it to an XPR7550e with proper RAS code and you can really hear how slow the TRX-2 is to decode.

Don't know if there is an easy answer to this.


I have to disagree with you about the problem being that the scanner can’t figure the difference between a data only and voice call. When sitting on the frequency, the scanner has no problems decoding actual voice traffic while ignoring the heartbeat signal the repeaters put out. If it were a crc issue, sitting on the object and sitting on the frequency would produce similar results. I’m more of the mind that there is a fundamental difference between the function in the firmware to decode when on the frequency, and the function in the firmware when scanning/monitoring the object. If Whistler just uses the same code for both, I think the problem will be solved...

You keep mentioning missing 10-4’s. That could be attributed to any number of things. I’m talking about not hearing ANYTHING. And I know how an XPR6550 sounds vs the scanner. We use them on the FD I’m on, and can hear the fundamental differences between it and our FD frequency on the scanner. Granted we are not using RAS, but you could miss a 10-4 just through the process of scanning. Again, I hear NO problems when sitting on the frequency... A crc issue would garble the voice or cause drops, which I don’t hear at all.
 
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