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Electrocomm UHF NEOH (NXDN) - System 191

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mtindor

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#1
Hello folks,

If anybody reading this thread has the ability to do some sleuthing of a couple of suspected NEXEDGE96 trunked sites in the Parma / Beachwood and Akon areas, please check in. Obviously I'm looking for somebody who knows how to use DSDPlus and has the ability to run DSDplus against traffic they find on frequencies between 422-425 mhz.

Specifically, I'm looking for somebody to run DSDPlus on the following frequencies and report back any NEXEDGE 96 information reported:


424.5625 (either Beachwood or Parma area)

424.9875 (Akron area)

NOTE: If you do pull information that suggests that these are L191-Site 1 or L191 Site 2, please do NOT submit it to the current System 191 that is in the DB, because I believe most likely this is actually in Ohio and not Michigan.

This is why I need the help of some savvy people in the aforementioned areas to check further.

Thanks

Mike
 
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mtindor

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#3
424.5625 shows NXDN96 Site-191-1 here.

Mike
Thank you. That's what it showed for me as well. I just needed some confirmation.

More importantly, somebody submitted System 191 as a Michigan system some time ago, and so it is in the DB as such. But I'm pretty confident it's in Ohio (and have licenses with NXDN emissions to back it up).

Based upon your monitoring setup, do you feel that what you are hearing is a "steady" signal that would be coming from Parma or Beachwood, or do you feel that it is an up/down signal likely coming across Lake Erie ?

Oh -- one more thing, if you don't know, when you're running DSD+ on a NXDN system, watch the screen that shows the Ch.# -- after a while it'll reveal the ch.# of the current control channel you are monitoring. If you sit on 424.5625 long enough, in the other window you chould a Ch 182 for the CC. That is very useful information, as it is necessary to know for proper NXDN trunking. And, if you sit long enough [I'm not suggesting that you do it, but If you do it], as their is voice traffic on the system you'll see a list of all of the Ch.#s that become in use. That's also useful. On systems where control channels rotate, you can often determine the Ch.#s of many frequencies associated with a site if you are able to monitor the new control channel after it is rotated.


Mike
 
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mtindor

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#6
424.4625 Current CC, Rock solid sig here CC CH#182
To be honest, that is not quite what I had expected. I had expected/hoped that you were now copying the signal on 424.4625 (because I could see it very faintly in my waterfall this morning and no longer saw anything on 424.5625).

What I did not expect though is that it would still reveal itself as Ch.182. That shouldn't be. Each Ch.# should be tied to a specific frequency.

Yesterday I reported [via a submission to the DB]:

424.5625 NEXEDGE96 L191-Site 1 RAN:1 NL:2 CH:182
424.9875 NEXEDGE96 L191-Site 2 RAN:2 CH:216

So if you are now monitoring 424.4625, it definitely should not be showing that it is Ch.182. Either you aren't on 424.4625 and instead are on 424.5625, OR I erroneously thought I was on 424.5625 yesterday and was actually on 424.4625. Hmm.

I hate to ask, but if you still have DSD+ running, please hit "F" and let it repopulate the trunked info. If you are not still running DSD+, then the next time you do please check 424.4625 again and confirm that it is actually showing the CC as Ch.182 (and confirm you are actually monitoring 424.4625).

If all of that checks out and 424.4625 = CC = Ch.182, then I must have gotten my eyes crossed and misread 424.5625 before.

How busy does that site seem to be? I will gather some licenses so that you have an idea what frequencies might be associated with Ch.4 and Ch.26

Mike
 

mtindor

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#7
The following licenses look like they would/could be associated with various sites. Although, since Site 1 only reports Site 2 as a neighbor and Site 2 only reports Site 1 as a neighbor, I'm going to guess that the other two sites aren't online.

I don't know if you are picking up Beachwood or Parma. Any guess on your part? If you are picking up 424.4625, it looks like it would be Beachwood. But if you were picking up 424.5625 yesterday, then that could be Beachwood or Parma. It's probably Beachwood.

I'd guess that Ch.4 and Ch.26 will be 422 mhz frequencies, not 424 mhz frequencies.


BEACHWOOD
---------
WPPY919
424.4625
424.4875
424.5125
424.5625
424.5875
424.6125
424.6375
424.7125
424.8375
424.8625

MANTUA (probably not online)
---------
WPPY920
422.3125
422.6125
424.5125
424.8875
424.9625

AKRON (Site 2)
---------
WPPD937
422.3125
422.3375
422.5875
422.6125
422.7625
422.9625
424.8125
424.9625
424.9875

PARMA
---------
WPQC999
422.3375
422.6125
424.5625
424.7125
424.7625
424.9375
424.9625
 

mtindor

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#8
424.4625 (ch.182) for site 1 and 424.9875 (ch.216) for site 2 would make sense in that:

424.9875-424.4625 = 0.425

216-182 = 34

0.425 / 34 = 0.0125 (12.5 khz channel spacing)

424.4625 being ch.182 doesn't make sense.

Ch.4 and Ch.26 on 422 Mhz are likely going to be 0.275 khz apart. ( (26 - 4) * .0125 ) = 0.275 khz

Beachwood doesn't have 422 Mhz frequencies

Parma 422.6125 - 422.3375 = 0.275

I suspect it goes like this:

PARMA 422.3375 CH 4
PARMA 422.6125 CH 26
PARMA 424.5625 CH 182 ; CC
AKRON 424.9875 CH 216

Mike
 
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#9
424.5625

My bad that was 424.5625 current CC, SITE:L191-1 RAN:1 NL:2



To be honest, that is not quite what I had expected. I had expected/hoped that you were now copying the signal on 424.4625 (because I could see it very faintly in my waterfall this morning and no longer saw anything on 424.5625).

What I did not expect though is that it would still reveal itself as Ch.182. That shouldn't be. Each Ch.# should be tied to a specific frequency.

Yesterday I reported [via a submission to the DB]:

424.5625 NEXEDGE96 L191-Site 1 RAN:1 NL:2 CH:182
424.9875 NEXEDGE96 L191-Site 2 RAN:2 CH:216

So if you are now monitoring 424.4625, it definitely should not be showing that it is Ch.182. Either you aren't on 424.4625 and instead are on 424.5625, OR I erroneously thought I was on 424.5625 yesterday and was actually on 424.4625. Hmm.

I hate to ask, but if you still have DSD+ running, please hit "F" and let it repopulate the trunked info. If you are not still running DSD+, then the next time you do please check 424.4625 again and confirm that it is actually showing the CC as Ch.182 (and confirm you are actually monitoring 424.4625).

If all of that checks out and 424.4625 = CC = Ch.182, then I must have gotten my eyes crossed and misread 424.5625 before.

How busy does that site seem to be? I will gather some licenses so that you have an idea what frequencies might be associated with Ch.4 and Ch.26

Mike
 

mtindor

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#11
My bad that was 424.5625 current CC, SITE:L191-1 RAN:1 NL:2
Ok great. It looks like you are monitoring PARMA then.

I suspect:

PARMA 422.3375 CH 4
PARMA 422.6125 CH 26
PARMA 424.5625 CH 182 ; CC
AKRON 424.9875 CH 216 ; CC

I know Akron is CC / CH is correct because I monitored it. You know Parma CC is correct because you monitored it.

Using some logic [which doesn't always work], the CH 4 and CH 26 have to be significantly lower in the band. PARMA license also has two 422 Mhz frequencies.

Spacing is 0.0125 khz

26 - 4 = 22 (channels in between)

22 channels * 0.0125 = 0.275 khz (which is how far apart CH 4 and CH 26 would be.

The Parma license has 422.6125 and 422.3375, which just happen to be 0.275 khz apart.

Assuming that when you sit on the Parma CC you see voice activity directed to CH 4 and CH 26 from time to time, what you might want to do is actually monitor 422.6125 and/or 422.3375 for a while and see if you get some voice.

If you do, then we nailed it -- the system is an Ohio system, two sites, Parma and Akron.

Let me know what you find out

Mike
 

mtindor

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#12
On 422.3375 hearing analog traffic
I won't doubt that. I'm betting you wouldn't expect that [nor would I]. But NEXEDGE documentation states:

NEXEDGE
®
trunked system traffic channels can be shared with existing external analog conventional or analog trunked logic controllers,
extending service to analog fleets as they transition to NXDN
®
trunking
So maybe that's what is going on. I don't know what "goods" you have to accomplish this task, but if you are able you should monitor the CC and watch for voice grants to certain frequencies, and then on a scanner with the voice frequencies programmed in see if you actually hear traffic (analog, or digital noise) when the control channel indicates that there is a voice call on a particular channel.

Just trying to absolutely confirm things before adding to the DB.

This does bring to mind something -- if it is an NEXEDGE controller handing off analog voice calls, there is no option in the RRDB for analog voice on NEXEDGE. Hmm.

Mike
 

mtindor

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#13
On 422.3375 hearing analog traffic
422.6125 NXDN96 SITE:L191-1 RAN:1
Ok, looking good. digital voice on 422.6125 and anlog voice on 422.3375.

The only thing I'd ask that you try and clarify is this:

When you are hearing analog voice on 422.3375, is DSDPlus (monitoring 424.5625 control channel) indicating that there is a voice call on CH 4 ?

You probably don't have an SDR setup that would allow you to verify that, but you can probably program 422.3375 in a scanner and listen while watching DSD+ (monitoring the control channel).

Mike
 

mtindor

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#14
I won't doubt that. I'm betting you wouldn't expect that [nor would I]. But NEXEDGE documentation states:



So maybe that's what is going on. I don't know what "goods" you have to accomplish this task, but if you are able you should monitor the CC and watch for voice grants to certain frequencies, and then on a scanner with the voice frequencies programmed in see if you actually hear traffic (analog, or digital noise) when the control channel indicates that there is a voice call on a particular channel.

Just trying to absolutely confirm things before adding to the DB.

This does bring to mind something -- if it is an NEXEDGE controller handing off analog voice calls, there is no option in the RRDB for analog voice on NEXEDGE. Hmm.

Mike
Actually, when 422.3375 is producing analog voice, you may not see the control channel directing traffic to Ch.4. I don't know if the NEXEDGE control does that itself, or if it's hooked in with an old analog controller and the analog controller is handling that. Again, dont know enough about NEXEDGE.

I think we have the right system, locations, and frequencies though.

I wish somebody who really knows there stuff about NEXEDGE would chime in with regard to how NEXEDGE works with existing analog logic controllers to support both digital voice and legacy analog voice on the same frequencies.

Mike
 

mtindor

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#15
On 422.3375 hearing analog traffic
422.6125 NXDN96 SITE:L191-1 RAN:1
Next, and probably last question...

Are you using a ducky/collapsible antenna or an external antenna?

Do you have a high degree of confidence that the site you are monitoring is in Parma Ohio based upon your location and setup?

Mike
 
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#16
Running 424.5625 in Trunking mode and it reports L191-1 Neighbor Site:L191-2; CC=216
TG#7700 CH=4

All this is new to me so half the time not sure what a lot of the data represents.

Is showing ENC TG's on some
 
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#17
Location

Next, and probably last question...

Are you using a ducky/collapsible antenna or an external antenna?

Do you have a high degree of confidence that the site you are monitoring is in Parma Ohio based upon your location and setup?

Mike
I am in N.Ridgeville so Parma would be my bet, listening of 30ft mast.
 

mtindor

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#18
Running 424.5625 in Trunking mode and it reports L191-1 Neighbor Site:L191-2; CC=216
TG#7700 CH=4

All this is new to me so have the time not sure what a lot of the data represents.

Is showing ENC TG's on some
Ok on encryption.

L191-1 is, in RR nomenclature, "network ID 191, Site 1"
"Neighbor Site:L191-2; CC=216" means Site 2 is a neighbor of Site 1 and that the control channel for Site 2 is CH 216

TG#7700 CH=4 means that talkgroup 7700 traffic was being directed to 422.3375 (CH 4).

Mike
 

mtindor

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#20
Running 424.5625 in Trunking mode and it reports L191-1 Neighbor Site:L191-2; CC=216
TG#7700 CH=4

All this is new to me so half the time not sure what a lot of the data represents.

Is showing ENC TG's on some
I know you have seen TG 7700. What other talkgroups have you seen? And do you remember which ones you saw as being encrypted?

I'm just curious. Since we don't know the agencies/users are of the talkgroups, I can't add them (and the system is only staged anyway and not visible in the RRDB). Just trying to figure out how busy the site is.

Please let me know if you see any new channels (CH's) show up when monitoring the control channel.

Mike
 
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